Gyrian
Hardened Shock Trooper
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2016
- Posts
- 443
I missed this comment earlier, holy shit!
Fantastic tongue in cheek touch, I really hope the UI can some day be upgraded to include this.
MVS & AES NEOSD flash card... AES Version ANNOUNCED & AVAILABLE!!
- Thread starter lherre
- Start date
Hardened Shock Trooper
I missed this comment earlier, holy shit!
Fantastic tongue in cheek touch, I really hope the UI can some day be upgraded to include this.
neosd
Neosd Developer
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2016
- Posts
- 956
Hello,
We are not going to open preorders for NEOSD+shell cause even we have a factory delivery date for the shells (1st of December), we still dont know if the factory is going to acomplish with that date. We think they will, but we cant confirm that 100% right now. We should know more in about two weeks from today, this is how factory times work, unfortunally ...
Also, we have a surprise for all preorders, but as i say, its a surprise so we are not going to tell it to rise sales/preorders.
I hope you guys understand that, we are doing our best to have everyone happy.
Thanks !
We are not going to open preorders for NEOSD+shell cause even we have a factory delivery date for the shells (1st of December), we still dont know if the factory is going to acomplish with that date. We think they will, but we cant confirm that 100% right now. We should know more in about two weeks from today, this is how factory times work, unfortunally ...
Also, we have a surprise for all preorders, but as i say, its a surprise so we are not going to tell it to rise sales/preorders.
I hope you guys understand that, we are doing our best to have everyone happy.
Thanks !
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2003
- Posts
- 4,475
Pretty much all I need to hear.
This is probably a dumb question, but what if I want to play an AES version of a game where you cant just force it into AES mode to get the version you want? Like Magician Lord AES version where you spawn back at the beginning of the level?
From my understanding this version is solely on home carts.
Will that version work in neo sd?
Not even sure if the ROM exists for that one.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2002
- Posts
- 4,662
That versiov of Magician Lord works on the NeoSD, you have to have it flashed to play it though.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2002
- Posts
- 4,662
How games play and the NeoSD preforms.
Now comes the fun part of the review because it involves playing games. There is no point buying the NeoSD after all if it cannot or cannot do the fundamental thing you bought it for, or only do them to the same level as a multicart (161in1). With this is mind I will probably reference the multicarts a few times in this section comparing how games play on that compared to the NeoSD.
KOF2003 (almost the ultimate test for the NeoSD).
Given I knew a little bit about the NeoSD before I received one I knew this was going to be the first game I flashed onto it. This is game that would tell me whether the NeoSD was just Hype or the real deal. The 161in1 has this game supported via a hack but it does not display correctly. It was a nervous 4:30 minutes while I waited for the game to flash. Then bam, once done the Neo Geo reset itself and I was presented with the Blue Green SNK / Playmore logo and growling music undertones. It's working. It's working.
For some that would be enough to say the game is supported and working but not for me. I want to make sure the hardware additions added to the original cartridge were also being handled correctly before I give my verdict.
First thing on my list was checking the game is correct with the UniBios game cart CRC32 check. I want to make sure there is no patching happening to the main program ROM to fake features in the game or cartridge hardware. I cold booted the NeoGeo and entered the CRC32 check. Boom, all regions pass!
Next priority to check was correct colour palette conversions... I can see It's an easy pass given attract mode is drawing correctly. To be sure no other trickery was going on I used the UniBios v3.3 patch feature to confirm the palette features on the original kof2003 cartridge were working as expected, and they were!
Next thing on my list, does it have the small RAM region kof2003 holds in its cartridge? After a quick test (using UniBios again)... BAM, it's there where it should be and 100% working!
Next thing to discover, is the banking system working in the same way as the original Kof2003 cartridge? Again after a little probing I can see it is!
Next thing to look at was if the NeoSD handles the FIX banking system used in the game. A simple thing to check given as soon as the first attract mode fight sequence begins I'll have the answer. Winner!!! Correct transparent effects on the energy bars and names. There is no way this can be easily patched into the game either if only the smaller FIX space is supported.
Lastly sound. There is not much to say given I can only use my ears as a reference. It sounds identical to the original to me though. There were no distortions, noise or anything else that made me say to myself this does not sound right. It was still sounding perfect after playing a few games too.
So what does this mean? Well I have thrown everything that comes to mind to try and find a weakness in the way the NeoSD is working compared to the original Kof2003 cartridge. Something where I could say this is not 100% right in how the game plays but I cannot find anything. As it stands now there is only one difference I can think of, that is if I were to put the PCBs of an original KOF2003 and the NeoSD next to each other they would look different. That is how close and impressive the NeoSD is.
We need to stand back for a moment to fully appreciate what this really means in relation to what the NeoSD is doing as a piece of hardware. Kof2003 was released well over 10 years ago and during that time there was never (to my knowledge) a proper bootleg version of the game. That is a bootleg that technically does the same, and plays the same as the original including its extra features. The Bootlegs have always been easy to spot just by playing the game, this was true until October 2016. Now when you couple this truth with the fact you can load any other original SNK game onto the NeoSD... It's like mind blown!
Garou Mark of the Wolves.
I'm not going to spend as much time going into details like I did with kof2003 because the story is the same. Many of you will undoubtedly know this is another game that has never really had correct bootlegs (or been done correctly on a multicart). I have flashed Garou onto the NeoSD and got the following;
Just like kof2003, Garou is just as impressive, for me it is no different than playing the game from the original cartridge. I want to highlight that an original kof2003 and Garou both use a different SNK cartridge spec. There is no way you can take one game and expect it to run on the PCB of the other. This means the NeoSD is correctly identifying the unpatched game it's loaded with and configuring itself so that game runs correctly.
I have done these same tests with various other protected games and the result is always the same. They are totally accurate, the NeoSD is setting itself to correctly copy the original game cartridge.
Metal Slug X.
The thorn in the side, or is it? We already know this game currently is not going to run identically to the original. Neosd has been clear in the forum in mentioning this fact. It's well worth the mention here though because it highlights the effort being put in. Let me be clear first, you can flash and play the game on the NeoSD and it will appear to be original. It plays just as well as the version people use when their original MSX cart stops working and they reprogram a replacement P1 ROM. In short there are patches applied to remove game protections so it will run on the NeoSD, I have confirmed this using the UniBios CRC32 check.
So what is the problem with this game? Well it's really very simple, currently the way the cart protection works is unknown. The NeoSD cannot be expected to copy something when there is no information on what it needs to copy. An original MSX cartridge will need probing to understand what it is doing. Only then can the patches be removed and the game be 100% the same as the original. There are also a couple of other areas where it is unknown if the NeoSD is doing things accurately (though it may well be accurate). Steps are being taken to confirm either way I hear and of course changes will be made if needed.
What this shows to me is the makers are not happy just to have a game that is playable, they will not be happy until the game is playable in an identical way to the original!
Trash Rally, Riding Hero and League Bowling.
These three games do work on the NeoSD and pass the UniBios CRC32 checks. The original games do come with the ability to linkup however so players can play over multiple Neo Geo systems. This feature is not supported on the NeoSD and may never be. Neosd has said it may be technically possible to add the feature via a small daughter board in the future, so all is not lost. But he also makes clear no one should take it as given that the feature will be added, even he would like to see it himself.
NGdevteam Games.
These game are not supported and will not work on the device. I took the MAME Last Hope ROM and tried in various different ways to get NeoSD to play the game. While it was easy to get the NeoSD to flash the game data, I just could not get it to run. All I got was the crosshatch screen. These games are not supported, confirmed.
Other Games in General.
I have not yet found a single issue with the exception of MSX above. All the protected games appear to be totally accurate and all original games are supported (I have not tested all mind). I have not found any sound issues on any games tested so far. Thanks to the info from GadgetUK, I have also confirmed the following games do not suffer the sound issues which plague the multicart versions;
I mentioned in the review section of the NeoBuilder that some bootleg games in MAME are not yet converted or supported. This is being worked on now I have been told. Many bootlegs that are on the multicarts will be instantly playable on the NeoSD once dumps become available given their generic nature.
I have tested some bootlegs like Metal Slug 2 turbo and Crossed Swords 2 to confirm they work as expected.
Conclusion
Apart from the Metal Slug X situation and the missing link feature there is simply nothing else I can see that needs addressing. I think to find faults will actually require me to start reviewing the games themselves!
This is a really quite advanced piece of hardware. There is no worry of having to patch out protections before some games will work as the NeoSD replicates the original cartridge hardware. It must automatically choose the right configuration for the game it holds in flash.
It is very clear the priority has been put into the NeoSD playing games correctly rather than just playing games, this justifies the price in my view. What the NeoSD is doing is quite amazing! There is little more to say, speechless....
Now comes the fun part of the review because it involves playing games. There is no point buying the NeoSD after all if it cannot or cannot do the fundamental thing you bought it for, or only do them to the same level as a multicart (161in1). With this is mind I will probably reference the multicarts a few times in this section comparing how games play on that compared to the NeoSD.
KOF2003 (almost the ultimate test for the NeoSD).
Given I knew a little bit about the NeoSD before I received one I knew this was going to be the first game I flashed onto it. This is game that would tell me whether the NeoSD was just Hype or the real deal. The 161in1 has this game supported via a hack but it does not display correctly. It was a nervous 4:30 minutes while I waited for the game to flash. Then bam, once done the Neo Geo reset itself and I was presented with the Blue Green SNK / Playmore logo and growling music undertones. It's working. It's working.
For some that would be enough to say the game is supported and working but not for me. I want to make sure the hardware additions added to the original cartridge were also being handled correctly before I give my verdict.
First thing on my list was checking the game is correct with the UniBios game cart CRC32 check. I want to make sure there is no patching happening to the main program ROM to fake features in the game or cartridge hardware. I cold booted the NeoGeo and entered the CRC32 check. Boom, all regions pass!
Next priority to check was correct colour palette conversions... I can see It's an easy pass given attract mode is drawing correctly. To be sure no other trickery was going on I used the UniBios v3.3 patch feature to confirm the palette features on the original kof2003 cartridge were working as expected, and they were!
Next thing on my list, does it have the small RAM region kof2003 holds in its cartridge? After a quick test (using UniBios again)... BAM, it's there where it should be and 100% working!
Next thing to discover, is the banking system working in the same way as the original Kof2003 cartridge? Again after a little probing I can see it is!
Next thing to look at was if the NeoSD handles the FIX banking system used in the game. A simple thing to check given as soon as the first attract mode fight sequence begins I'll have the answer. Winner!!! Correct transparent effects on the energy bars and names. There is no way this can be easily patched into the game either if only the smaller FIX space is supported.
Lastly sound. There is not much to say given I can only use my ears as a reference. It sounds identical to the original to me though. There were no distortions, noise or anything else that made me say to myself this does not sound right. It was still sounding perfect after playing a few games too.
So what does this mean? Well I have thrown everything that comes to mind to try and find a weakness in the way the NeoSD is working compared to the original Kof2003 cartridge. Something where I could say this is not 100% right in how the game plays but I cannot find anything. As it stands now there is only one difference I can think of, that is if I were to put the PCBs of an original KOF2003 and the NeoSD next to each other they would look different. That is how close and impressive the NeoSD is.
We need to stand back for a moment to fully appreciate what this really means in relation to what the NeoSD is doing as a piece of hardware. Kof2003 was released well over 10 years ago and during that time there was never (to my knowledge) a proper bootleg version of the game. That is a bootleg that technically does the same, and plays the same as the original including its extra features. The Bootlegs have always been easy to spot just by playing the game, this was true until October 2016. Now when you couple this truth with the fact you can load any other original SNK game onto the NeoSD... It's like mind blown!
Garou Mark of the Wolves.
I'm not going to spend as much time going into details like I did with kof2003 because the story is the same. Many of you will undoubtedly know this is another game that has never really had correct bootlegs (or been done correctly on a multicart). I have flashed Garou onto the NeoSD and got the following;
- Confirmed the game is unpatched.
- Confirmed the extras SNK put on the cart are also present on the NeoSD.
- Confirmed game banking operates in the same way as the original cartridge.
- Confirmed expanded FIX tile support.
- Listened to sound to confirm it's good.
Just like kof2003, Garou is just as impressive, for me it is no different than playing the game from the original cartridge. I want to highlight that an original kof2003 and Garou both use a different SNK cartridge spec. There is no way you can take one game and expect it to run on the PCB of the other. This means the NeoSD is correctly identifying the unpatched game it's loaded with and configuring itself so that game runs correctly.
I have done these same tests with various other protected games and the result is always the same. They are totally accurate, the NeoSD is setting itself to correctly copy the original game cartridge.
Metal Slug X.
The thorn in the side, or is it? We already know this game currently is not going to run identically to the original. Neosd has been clear in the forum in mentioning this fact. It's well worth the mention here though because it highlights the effort being put in. Let me be clear first, you can flash and play the game on the NeoSD and it will appear to be original. It plays just as well as the version people use when their original MSX cart stops working and they reprogram a replacement P1 ROM. In short there are patches applied to remove game protections so it will run on the NeoSD, I have confirmed this using the UniBios CRC32 check.
So what is the problem with this game? Well it's really very simple, currently the way the cart protection works is unknown. The NeoSD cannot be expected to copy something when there is no information on what it needs to copy. An original MSX cartridge will need probing to understand what it is doing. Only then can the patches be removed and the game be 100% the same as the original. There are also a couple of other areas where it is unknown if the NeoSD is doing things accurately (though it may well be accurate). Steps are being taken to confirm either way I hear and of course changes will be made if needed.
What this shows to me is the makers are not happy just to have a game that is playable, they will not be happy until the game is playable in an identical way to the original!
Trash Rally, Riding Hero and League Bowling.
These three games do work on the NeoSD and pass the UniBios CRC32 checks. The original games do come with the ability to linkup however so players can play over multiple Neo Geo systems. This feature is not supported on the NeoSD and may never be. Neosd has said it may be technically possible to add the feature via a small daughter board in the future, so all is not lost. But he also makes clear no one should take it as given that the feature will be added, even he would like to see it himself.
NGdevteam Games.
These game are not supported and will not work on the device. I took the MAME Last Hope ROM and tried in various different ways to get NeoSD to play the game. While it was easy to get the NeoSD to flash the game data, I just could not get it to run. All I got was the crosshatch screen. These games are not supported, confirmed.
Other Games in General.
I have not yet found a single issue with the exception of MSX above. All the protected games appear to be totally accurate and all original games are supported (I have not tested all mind). I have not found any sound issues on any games tested so far. Thanks to the info from GadgetUK, I have also confirmed the following games do not suffer the sound issues which plague the multicart versions;
- Cyber Lip has no missing or broken voices during intro.
- League Bowling does not miss ADPCM-B samples (voice on intro for example).
- Kof98 plays radio chat voices on intro.
- Metal Slug 5 character select music has no volume shifts.
- NAM-1975 soldier screams does not breakup during intro.
- Ninja Masters has no breakup or volume shifts during intro.
- Neo Turf Masters intro and game music has no volume shifts in background music.
- Pulstar music has no breakup and volume shifts during intro.
- Strikers 1945 Plus has no volume shifts in background music.
- Rage of Dragons has no breakup or volume shifts during intro.
I mentioned in the review section of the NeoBuilder that some bootleg games in MAME are not yet converted or supported. This is being worked on now I have been told. Many bootlegs that are on the multicarts will be instantly playable on the NeoSD once dumps become available given their generic nature.
I have tested some bootlegs like Metal Slug 2 turbo and Crossed Swords 2 to confirm they work as expected.
Conclusion
Apart from the Metal Slug X situation and the missing link feature there is simply nothing else I can see that needs addressing. I think to find faults will actually require me to start reviewing the games themselves!
This is a really quite advanced piece of hardware. There is no worry of having to patch out protections before some games will work as the NeoSD replicates the original cartridge hardware. It must automatically choose the right configuration for the game it holds in flash.
It is very clear the priority has been put into the NeoSD playing games correctly rather than just playing games, this justifies the price in my view. What the NeoSD is doing is quite amazing! There is little more to say, speechless....
Last edited:
GadgetUK
Ace Ghost Pilot
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2013
- Posts
- 1,323
Totally awesome review Raz! Really enjoyed reading your breakdown of how everything works etc. It's a shame the Last Hope beta doesn't work, I was kind of hoping it did (it did on their video when they demonstrated it?!?). I've ordered an proper Last Hope from NGDEV last XMAS but still wanted to be able to play it on the SD. I guess I can wait until 2017 when NGDEV finally get around to shipping it =/
Thanks Raz for that awesome review! We really have a winner here.
I did notice that we keep comparing this device to the cheap multicarts or original hardware; what about MAME?? Has MAME gotten Neo Geo emulation to the point where it will pass all (but MSX) CRC32 checks and be equivalent to this device in terms of behaviour? I know nothing beats original hardware .. but it's interesting to know how well MAME has progressed over the years.
I did notice that we keep comparing this device to the cheap multicarts or original hardware; what about MAME?? Has MAME gotten Neo Geo emulation to the point where it will pass all (but MSX) CRC32 checks and be equivalent to this device in terms of behaviour? I know nothing beats original hardware .. but it's interesting to know how well MAME has progressed over the years.
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2003
- Posts
- 4,475
This is great! I cant wait to get mine.
Officially Pumped!
Officially Pumped!
Rot
Calvin & Hobbes, ,
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2003
- Posts
- 11,441
I have found away to stop load times...
I suggest you buy a neosd for EVERY game... and preload them... and put them in a shockbox..
xROTx
PS. Nice review Raz... I am glad the device does what it says on the tin... it's hard to impress you... That says more than any words can...
I suggest you buy a neosd for EVERY game... and preload them... and put them in a shockbox..
xROTx
PS. Nice review Raz... I am glad the device does what it says on the tin... it's hard to impress you... That says more than any words can...
.
Rot
Calvin & Hobbes, ,
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2003
- Posts
- 11,441
I'm not sure that's how it works
Cory_poon... plz...
It's been stated that once the game is loaded... it stays on the neosd....
You just have to pre-load each game in the Ng library ONCE.... thats like 180plus neosd's... and Job is a good un'...
xROTx
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2001
- Posts
- 5,666
Cory_poon... plz...
It's been stated that once the game is loaded... it stays on the neosd....
You just have to pre-load each game in the Ng library ONCE.... thats like 180plus neosd's... and Job is a good un'...
xROTx
Rot plz, I thought this thing was made to save us some money
I'm going to subscribe to 8man's collection thread now waiting for neosd versions of every single one of his games
munchiaz
Robert Garcia's Butler
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2011
- Posts
- 1,299
Rot plz, I thought this thing was made to save us some money
I'm going to subscribe to 8man's collection thread now waiting for neosd versions of every single one of his games
LMAO.
On the NeoSD. I had a discussion awhile ago about this thing, where some people were saying its over priced, and just to get a multicart. I'm thrilled that Raz's review puts all that shit talk to sleep. This thing is awesome, and someday i hope to get one.
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Posts
- 9,091
Cory_poon... plz...
It's been stated that once the game is loaded... it stays on the neosd....
You just have to pre-load each game in the Ng library ONCE.... thats like 180plus neosd's... and Job is a good un'...
xROTx
And since you're just flashing it once it'll never wear out, lasting forever!!!
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2004
- Posts
- 3,225
Thanks Raz!
I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that Raz is one of the very few people with the knowledge required for such a comprehensive, and most importantly, to-the-point review of the NeoSD flash cart and that as a result, I think we all now can have the confidence that the NeoSD flash cart lives up to all its claims and is, well... all-but-perfect (MSX) - and probably will soon be perfect! So thanks to Raz for a fantastic review.
On a personal note, I was holding out for an AES version but after reading the review I'm very excited about it and it's going to be difficult to restrain myself from ordering one now!
On a personal note, I was holding out for an AES version but after reading the review I'm very excited about it and it's going to be difficult to restrain myself from ordering one now!
@NeoSd
Your payment system is the biggest crap I've seen in ecommerce history. I've tried 3 (in words three) different credit cards (Visa,MasterCard, AMEX) but no one of the cards was accepted by the system - and it's for sure not a financial problem on my side.
Your payment system is the biggest crap I've seen in ecommerce history. I've tried 3 (in words three) different credit cards (Visa,MasterCard, AMEX) but no one of the cards was accepted by the system - and it's for sure not a financial problem on my side.