Dark Souls

subcons

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I saw mention of this in the main Demon's Souls thread, but the latest post in there was back in Feb.; figured this game deserved it's own thread seeing as how it's coming up in a few weeks.

I recently got a triple and have been co-oping through DS with a friend while we sit in XBL party chat. I'm loving DS, but I'm one who tries to play games that I like a lot pretty thoroughly. The more I read up on this game, the more complicated things seem. Now that I'm getting curious about unique items and how to get them, I'm wandering into the Tendency mechanics of DS and I'm starting to realize that I'm just not going to be able to even scratch the surface on this game before Dark Souls drops. So I'm just enjoying it for what it is now knowing I'll probably never play through it multiple times or see everything.

At any rate, I've been reading up on Dark Souls and it looks to need just as much time and dedication, if not more so, than DS. Plus, even though I'm having trouble finding any official news on the game, from what I've read on message boards they've disabled party chat for the 360 version of the game. I guess they're really dedicated to this vision they have for this game/series. I plan on getting it on 360 regardless, but me and my friends may just have to party chat on PS3 or something. Kind of lame.

Even still, I'm starting to rethink my game purchasing over the next couple of months just because of this game. I'm questioning whether I should try and keep up with the majority of these triple-A games coming out or just dedicate all my gaming time to Dark Souls when it drops and pick up the rest of the stuff later on. Not sure yet. But Demon's Souls is that good to make me think like this. Shame I was so LTTP on this.
 

RabbitTroop

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Yeah, I didn't like Demon Souls at all. I can take hard games... Hell I like a really hard and challenging game, but 90% of the challenge in Demon Souls came from horrible controls and a bad controller layout overall. Not to mention it was bland and boring to me. I just didn't get into it at all. I think I went into it expecting way too much. I heard everyone on this site going on and on about how great it was, and then when I got it I just saw a run of the mill and average PC RPG that nobody would have even mentioned had it not been a PS3 exclusive. It put me off so much, I don't even know if I'll bother with renting Dark Souls... Yeah, Demon Souls was that bad for me.
 

Magician

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I love the action/rpg genre, but Demon Souls was too tough for me.

Aside from roguelikes, Demon Souls and Dark Souls are the most masochisitic games in the industry.
 

Poonman

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Your story sounds a lot like mine.

I got the triple recently for Dark Souls (and KOF XIII) but I've been doing Demons Souls offline until then.

I really allocated my stats like crap, but I think I've grinded enough to the point where it doesn't really matter on PvE. Just going to play through enough times for all the trophies, finish my one kickass character and be done with it.


It sucks that there's one item (monks head collar) that requires online play and by the time I get set up for online, they will probably shut down the servers by then. =(

I hope Dark Souls can dial it back with the online only items, but knowing these guys, it's probably going to be an ocd nightmare.

Looks like Demons Souls with a lot more cool crap to collect and some actual "role playing" thrown in as opposed to just wandering aimlessly and grinding.
 

subcons

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From what I was reading about tendency, there are actually a lot of items that require offline play and I've been doing nothing but online play. It's pretty much impossible to get total white world tendency online if I understand things correctly and that's a prerequisite to getting certain things in the worlds. So I'm pretty much borked out of some of that stuff at this point with my current character.

The US servers are supposed to be shut down some time in October, but people have posted that Atlus has announced shutdowns in the past and extended the dates. Might happen again, though unlikely with Dark Souls dropping.

I really love the way the online in this works with the bloodstains and messages. Very unique and well done. I understand why they designed the co-op like they did now that I've actually played the game, but I still wish Dark Souls would let me play the way I want. Gaming has become such a social thing, especially for me any more.

As for the difficulty, I don't think the game is all that hard. It punishes you for making dumb mistakes and has a steep learning curve to boot, but once you become familiar with the mechanics (which I'm still learning after 14 hours of play), it becomes highly addictive. I'm not sure how you can deny that the game just oozes fucking atmosphere all over the place. Just watching videos, I didn't get it. But once I got my hands on it that all changed.
 

cannonball

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Demon's Souls is one of my favorite games of all time. I've been anticipating Dark Souls release for so long I can't believe it's only a month away now. Can't wait.

I've pretty much exhausted everything there is to do in DS, but even so, I might play through again. I want to try a STR build, although with the online possibly going away soon that won't be much fun without invading other people's games.
 

HeartlessNinny

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I loved Demon's Souls too. Come on, it wasn't that hard.

Either way I can't wait for this. I've had it pre-ordered for months.
 

cannonball

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I loved Demon's Souls too. Come on, it wasn't that hard.

It really wasn't. The whole difficulty thing was blown way out of proportion.

I think for a lot of people the fact that you couldn't plow your way through a stage with reckless abandon made it seem hard. When really it just meant you needed to play wisely because it was easy to die if you got careless.
 
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Jedah Doma

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I couldn't care less about this game personally. Demon's Souls is one of the most overhyped and overpraised games in recent memory. Though here's hoping they can pull a hail marry and make a good game this time around.
 

HeartlessNinny

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I couldn't care less about this game personally. Demon's Souls is one of the most overhyped and overpraised games in recent memory. Though here's hoping they can pull a hail marry and make a good game this time around.

I don't understand why you keep doing this — you'll pop into a thread and go, "This shit sucks!" Then leave again. Strikes me as a bit pointless.
 

Jedah Doma

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It's called giving my opinion. I didn't realize you were required to have a positive opinion about the game in order to post in this thread. Thank you forum officer. Just let me go with a warning this time. Spanks.
 

Taiso

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I loved the gameplay and the grinding elements, but I thought the game was a a bit bland in the aesthetics department. RPGs have to involve me on a personal level to keep me invested, and Demon's Souls seemed very focused on making me 'just another adventurer' in this vast world. I liked the 'purgatory' hub, the leveling, the item gathering, the weapon and eqiupment system-that stiff was all very well done. The gameplay just wasn't enough to keep me motivated to play, however.

I think that my opinion might have been different if I hadn't come to the party late. That's why I'm excited about Dark Souls. I'm going to be getting in at the start to see if the fresh community keeps me motivated. I also like what I'm seeing out of the preview trailers that tell the story of the world. And as has been said, there are stronger story elements in this, it would seem.

I would disagree with the assessment that 'Demon's Souls wasn't that hard.' Yes it was, in an objective sense. It is a difficult game. Of course, some of us have played harder games so that makes DS seem a bit tame by comparison, but I think describing it as a 'hard' game is fair. Hard can mean stupid retarded combat or it can mean severe punishment for failure or any number of other things. When people say 'Demon's Souls isn't that hard' I equate that with the person either being really good at video games or having faced tougher challenges in other games.
 
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subcons

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I loved the gameplay and the grinding elements, but I thought the game was a a bit bland in the aesthetics department. RPGs have to involve me on a personal level to keep me invested, and Demon's Souls seemed very focused on making me 'just another adventurer' in this vast world. I liked the 'purgatory' hub, the leveling, the item gathering, the weapon and eqiupment system-that stiff was all very well done. The gameplay just wasn't enough to keep me motivated to play, however.

I'm one for minimalism when it comes to aesthetics. I can't really put my finger on why DS feels minimalist to me, but it does. At the same time though, it has a lot of little detail to it. For that, it feels effortless in its design and that's a hard thing to accomplish.

The sound design is pretty awesome as well. That combined with the fact that a lot of areas are quite dark and you can't see more than five feet around you at some points and it makes for a very moody experience. It's what the devs set out to do and they've nailed it. I love it.

I'm honestly not that big on RPGs any more. I don't care about story in my games for whatever reason. I just like pure game play which is why I think I like this so much. There is a ton of room for learning and improving, and not just from playing it, but understanding the mechanics as well. It almost requires you to read a wiki or guide to fully grasp what's going on with some of the stuff in DS. I can see how that would turn a lot of people off though.

I would disagree with the assessment that 'Demon's Souls wasn't that hard.' Yes it was, in an objective sense. It is a difficult game. Of course, some of us have played harder games so that makes DS seem a bit tame by comparison, but I think describing it as a 'hard' game is fair. Hard can mean stupid retarded combat or it can mean severe punishment for failure or any number of other things. When people say 'Demon's Souls isn't that hard' I equate that with the person either being really good at video games or having faced tougher challenges in other games.

That seems like a fair assessment. I play most games on the hardest setting from the start. But I agree with cannonball that it gets blown out of proportion because people have become so used to games doing a lot of hand holding any more. If you take your time and move slowly through this, it's not that bad. And with every death, you learn something new. And all you really lose are souls. You keep all your items and you don't get knocked down a level or anything. Plus, you have an opportunity to regain all that you lost. It's likely you can if you learned anything from your death and go back to where you died cautiously. I think most people that hate this game try to steamroll through it like any other game and that just doesn't work, especially when you're new to it.
 

Taiso

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Subcons, your most recent post actually turned out to be pretty thought provoking. So thanks for that:)

I'm one for minimalism when it comes to aesthetics. I can't really put my finger on why DS feels minimalist to me, but it does. At the same time though, it has a lot of little detail to it. For that, it feels effortless in its design and that's a hard thing to accomplish.

I follow you on the minimalist vibe. It's definitely there, but it equates to boredom with me. I wouldn't go so far as to call it an acquired taste, but I'd say it will generally appeal to a certain type of gamer more than another.

I'm honestly not that big on RPGs any more. I don't care about story in my games for whatever reason. I just like pure game play which is why I think I like this so much. There is a ton of room for learning and improving, and not just from playing it, but understanding the mechanics as well. It almost requires you to read a wiki or guide to fully grasp what's going on with some of the stuff in DS. I can see how that would turn a lot of people off though.

I think this is actually my biggest problem with the game. There is no sense of 'why' I should go through this experience. I don't feel special in the game, I don't feel like a hero or like my actions mean anything playing this game. I'm just a minion, one of an army of souls waging a war against dark forces and that is not what I want out of a gaming experience. I understand that, on a metagaming level, this is sort of the point of the game but that is why I just couldn't get interested in it.

RPGs need story for me to be invovled. If I want twitch gameplay with superb mechanics, there are better pure experiences for that than Demon Souls. If I want grinding, leveling and repetitive battling, there are better experiences for that as well.

I think what Demon's Souls does very well is it scratches an itch for people that are all about gameplay but who also would enjoy a deeper character building mechanic. The thing I think is pretty awesome about DS is how it takes a lot of the basic character growth principles of games like Borderlands, Fallout and Oblivion-the equipment, customization and character buffing elements-and kicks all their asses in presenting a system that is insanely deep and compelling.

This is a Japanese version of those games, pure and simple. From the standpoint that the Japanese don't typically make this type of game, DS is a fascinating entry into the genre and an excellent experiment by From.

That seems like a fair assessment. I play most games on the hardest setting from the start. But I agree with cannonball that it gets blown out of proportion because people have become so used to games doing a lot of hand holding any more. If you take your time and move slowly through this, it's not that bad. And with every death, you learn something new. And all you really lose are souls. You keep all your items and you don't get knocked down a level or anything. Plus, you have an opportunity to regain all that you lost. It's likely you can if you learned anything from your death and go back to where you died cautiously. I think most people that hate this game try to steamroll through it like any other game and that just doesn't work, especially when you're new to it.

I agree with this sentiment. Initially, I didn't. But as I was typing, I realized that you're right about this and reformed my thoughts. Wordy exposition to follow.

I think that's a failing of the game journalism industry and the proliferation of useless information. I'm reminded of Big Shell in Metal Gear Solid II, where the whole scenario was an experiment by an artificial computer to try and control information in order to refine its own process of disseminating what is useful data for human consumption and what is useless and then discarding what's not needed. People bag on MGS II's story a lot, but there is some progressive shit going on in there as it relates to the spreading of information through digital distribution methods.

ANYWAY, I think game journalists, conditioned to speed up their reviews and criticisms due to the juggernaut industry gaming has become, try to blow through the games as quickly as possible so they can post their review and get their site hits while the game's still relevant. This satisfies the publisher and the current market conditions. This results in 'man, this game was not easy to get through.' What they should have said was 'man, this game was not easy to get through in the three days I had to review it.'

Then, we all see far too many faceless profiles parroting those words, adopting things like Metacritic and online game reviews as their same stance without even considering whether or not they even agree with it. One of the unique (I originally said 'shitty' but that's not a fair or objective way of putting it) things the internet does is it gives everyone a voice, and too many people that normally would be disregarded for being lackwits on a particular subject get to occupy a space on a web page that is all their own. They get their podium time, and a lot of times, internet denizens (I originally said 'fools' but again, not fair or objective) will say things simply to be involved in the discussion. Combine this with a general inclination by commonfolk to support angry opinions, simply by sheer virtue of their emotional content and without considering whether or not the opinion is even accurate, in an increasingly desensitized information culture and you have an army of people imititating a terrible viewpoint solely because it makes them feel good to do so. It's why stuff like Jerry Springer is still on the air in daytime markets.

Slightly off topic, but I think it speaks to why the proliferation of 'ZOMG DEMONS SOULS IS SO HARD!' is out there-a vocal minority feel smart by parroting reviews they think are intelligent about a well regarded niche title, rather than actually forming their own thoughts from a respectable batch of personal experiences. It's why I trust this site's forum members on their opinions about games WAY more than journalism sites. Nobody here is getting paid to discuss the games they're playing.
 
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Loopz

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Demons Souls was a work of ART.
I have a ton of respect for any game nowadays that makes you WORK for it. I myself, being totally unfamiliar with this genre, died repeatedly on the first level. And then, once I removed my head from my ass and figured out exactly what it was I should be doing, got through. It was rewarding as hell. I never had enough time to seriously get head-over-heels involved with it, but man...the ambiance and gameplay were that good.

There's a lot of soft gamers in this thread who have lost their nerve for being challenged. I fully intend to get in on the ground floor with Dark Souls and play this and only this, save for a little SF here and there. :D
 

Poonman

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IMO, calling Demons Souls a work of art, a masterpiece, sublime etc. is giving the game WAAAAY too much credit.

I think "neat" is a better way to describe it.



Where the game really nailed it was the clean and simple design. People are sick of oversized shoulder pauldrons, glowing swords, and overpowered characters...shit that caters to kids with low self esteem and weak attention spans.

Think of something like Darksiders or God of War. The whole game is about how strong you are, how special you are and how YOU ARE "THE ONE".
Your weapons are fucking huge, your armor is massive and all you need is a pulse to finish this.
You press buttons and shit gets demolished, then you go somewhere else and press more buttons, etc.

Compare that to Demons Souls where your character is just a fragile humanoid and the game doesn't give a flying fuck whether you finish it or not. It's not fair that a normal enemy can kill you with one hit, or that the save point comes after the boss you can't kill...but hey, life isn't fair sometimes.
 
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Taiso

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I had thoughts, but never mind. I've typed more than enough in this thread.
 

Poonman

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So anyway....the wanderer class(my favorite) is pretty cool in this game and it looks like they can backflip like the assassins from Demons Souls.

 

SetaSouji??

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DS is only as hard as you make it. Every aspect of the game can be outsmarted once you figure it out, but that doesn't stop it from being fun. Some people love to grind, others not so much.. all a matter of taste. I'll def. be picking this up once it hits stores.
 

Elerach

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Every single person here needs to play through the King's Field series (especially if you loved Demon's souls) as playing through those games will give you a MUCH deeper appreciation for the evolution of the series and the things that DS has to offer; I personally love CRPG's and American style dungeon crawlers and the King's Field series (and all related games) are THE finest way to experience them on consoles.
 

BryLmoo

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Someone further up made a comment about Demon's having bad controls...
The game controls like a dream. If you make a mistake, it makes you pay. It's all about timing, just like actual combat. If you swing your sword at the wrong time, you will be cut, and it isn't the game's fault...it's your fault. The atmosphere is great as well, and while it is an acquired taste, you have to at least admire the attention to detail within the world. Not even really just the graphics, but the mythology...it's one of those, a thick piece of progressive gaming. Or regressive, in terms of difficulty... Great game though...
 

subcons

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More 360 footage has been surfacing over the past few days (hadn't seen the vid above yet). First vid that came out made the port look pretty terrible, but vids that have followed look much better. Must have just been a bad video on that first one. I was going to wait until there was a verdict on whether or not the 360 version was total shit or not, but I think I'm just going to go ahead and pre-order that version later this week. They look to be about the same from footage.

News on this game is kind of hard to come by, but fans of DS are compiling quite a bit of information on DrkS. Found this thread on GameFAQs of all places. It's a bit old, but had a lot of interesting info in it that I wasn't aware of that still probably holds true to the final release. Some things that stood out to me reading through it:

Combat
* Crossbows can be reloaded while moving

Online
* Neither allied phantoms nor invaders can heal using Est jars while in another world; they must rely on magic spells if they heal at all
* New soul sign, Gravelord: using it causes 3 random player’s worlds to become “infected” and Black Phantom versions of regular enemies to appear, making the stages harder
* If the players can find the sign left by the Gravelord user, they can use it to invade his/her world; killing the Gravelord user removes the infection from all of the worlds

Magic
* Magic now uses a charge system: each spell has a limited number of uses, varied based on the strength of the magic

So crossbows are actually viable now. I hated the reload on them; it made them feel so crippling over bows. Looks like being online can have some pretty drastic effects depending on how much of a dick people feel like being. Interesting change to the magic system. Should balance things out... curious how that will work for straight magic builds though.

The Humanity system, which replaces the Tendency system, sounds pretty interesting, if not at least more manageable.
 

HeartlessNinny

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It's called giving my opinion. I didn't realize you were required to have a positive opinion about the game in order to post in this thread. Thank you forum officer. Just let me go with a warning this time. Spanks.

That would be an excellent point, but I noticed you've been doing it a lot. If someone goes, "Yeah, this sucked," that's one thing. But when you read several threads in a row and the same guy is always saying, "Fuck this shit," that's another.

Anyway, it's not like I came at you super hard here man. I just said, in effect, hey, what's up with this. You respond with snarkiness, which kind of proves my point, I might add.

But this is the mellower me, so forget it. I have no desire to fight with you, Jedah. Feel free to pick up my old torch of pointless antagonism if you like, though. I'm not using it anymore. ;) (Last bit's a joke, by the way.)
 

Fritz

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Someone further up made a comment about Demon's having bad controls...
The game controls like a dream. If you make a mistake, it makes you pay. It's all about timing, just like actual combat. If you swing your sword at the wrong time, you will be cut, and it isn't the game's fault...it's your fault. The atmosphere is great as well, and while it is an acquired taste, you have to at least admire the attention to detail within the world. Not even really just the graphics, but the mythology...it's one of those, a thick piece of progressive gaming. Or regressive, in terms of difficulty... Great game though...

Demon's Souls had some nuances that annoyed me but the combat I thought was superb. I can't think of many modern games where attack timing and positioning impact the outcome of a battle as much as Demon Souls.

Dark Souls:
Some environments can only be explored after you reach certain points in the game, and there is also DLC planned for Dark Souls down the road. “You can’t go everywhere from the beginning,” explained Horono. “You’ll know if you’re going the wrong way because you will die.”

LOL!
 
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