Darksoft's Next Project

[GohanX]

Do you really think NG Dev would have any trouble selling their games out even if the roms were leaked? The people paying 500 euros wouldn't give a damn if they could easily pirate or not. The easy piracy of the Neo CD/DC versions of their games certainly haven't slowed it down.

 

[Razoola]

This would be awesome.

Indeed people forget that the multicart can actually be a lot better than a everdrive if done right. It has several advantages...

- No preloading of each game.
- Extremely fast game switching.

Just because the current NeoGeo multi carts have been very bad does not mean someone cannot do it right and in a way that the NeoGeo supports (multislot).

I guess you would be looking at well over a minute to upload a later neogeo game to it based on the CPS2 device speed.

 

[Razoola]

On the other hand, Everdrives are powerful development tools that have brought loads of new developers to the homebrew scene. They eliminate the barrier of having to build custom test equipment and flashing devices for rom testing and development. Nearly everyone developing for Everdrive-supported consoles uses them for testing, and even normal users can easily patch a rom and flash it.

Perhaps the reason there has been little to no MVS independent development is due to the lack flash-carts. Even creating and distributing simple patches like the MS2 speed-hack is very difficult and out of the reach of almost everyone who owns an MVS.

Most dev work happens in emulation, its only the testing phase that happens on real hardware so it wont help, don't kid yourself. It would make testing easier though but any serious dev already has a method to do this.

If you compare the homebrew dev work on arcade based systems which system has the most... NeoGeo.

 

[SmokeMonster]

Most dev work happens in emulation, its only the testing phase that happens on real hardware so it wont help, don't kid yourself. It would make testing easier though but any serious dev already has a method to do this.

A flashcart would enable people who never became serious developers to develop as amateurs. It would also allow amateur developers to become serious.

If toying around with development means having to build special test equipment, many casual developers would be locked out of the process and move on to something more accessible.

 

[Fygee]

Indeed people forget that the multicart can actually be a lot better than a everdrive if done right. It has several advantages...

- No preloading of each game.
- Extremely fast game switching.

Just because the current NeoGeo multi carts have been very bad does not mean someone cannot do it right and in a way that the NeoGeo supports (multislot).

I guess you would be looking at well over a minute to upload a later neogeo game to it based on the CPS2 device speed.

Agreed. A quality multicart is really the better way to go. If one can be made that has the whole library on one or two carts, an Everdrive is pointless, or at the very least much less desirable.

Regarding if this would hurt independent NG development, I don't think it will. People that spend the money on these carts do so because having a physical, authentic product is paramount, in addition to voluntarily supporting the developers financially. There's also those that will buy them just to hoard them and flip them later, but even though that's another moral ball of wax, its another contributor to physical sales. Neither of those audiences will diminish because of ROMs or a multicart.

I think its safe to say the Neo community holds authenticity and physical product above all else more than any other gaming community by far.

 

[SmokeMonster]

Agreed. A quality multicart is really the better way to go. If one can be made that has the whole library on one or two carts, an Everdrive is pointless, or at the very least much less desirable.

Regarding if this would hurt independent NG development, I don't think it will. People that spend the money on these carts do so because having a physical, authentic product is paramount, in addition to voluntarily supporting the developers financially. There's also those that will buy them just to hoard them and flip them later, but even though that's another moral ball of wax, its another contributor to physical sales. Neither of those audiences will diminish because of ROMs or a multicart.

I think its safe to say the Neo community holds authenticity and physical product above all else more than any other gaming community by far.

I would be happy with a multi-cart with quality roms too. This would also prevent the pirating of NGD games that Raz brought up.

Indeed people forget that the multicart can actually be a lot better than a everdrive if done right. It has several advantages...

- No preloading of each game.
- Extremely fast game switching.

Just because the current NeoGeo multi carts have been very bad does not mean someone cannot do it right and in a way that the NeoGeo supports (multislot).

I guess you would be looking at well over a minute to upload a later neogeo game to it based on the CPS2 device speed.

I agree that something like what you describe would be preferable to a flash-cart for most of us. Basically an X-in-1 done professionally.

 

[Razoola]

A flashcart would enable people who never became serious developers to develop as amateurs. It would also allow amateur developers to become serious.

If toying around with development means having to build special test equipment, many casual developers would be locked out of the process and move on to something more accessible.

As I said that is what emulation is used for. Casual developers do this already but I guess you have never looked. There is the CD system that many have used in the past for showing their NeoGeo creations. This idea that there will suddenly more dev people on the NeoGeo system just because of a flash cart is nonsense. If you were talking 6 or 7 years ago I would agree but not now.

For many years the NeoGeo has been the system of choice for devs simply because its one of the easier systems to actually test data on, CD which is more than enough for a small game.

Your Idea there there has been no dev stuff on the NeoGeo is out out touch with reality.

 

[SmokeMonster]

As I said that is what emulation is used for. Casual developers do this already but I guess you have never looked. There is the CD system that many have used in the past for showing their NeoGeo creations. This idea that there will suddenly more dev people on the NeoGeo system just because of a flash cart is nonsense. If you were talking 6 or 7 years ago I would agree but not now.

For many years the NeoGeo has been the system of choice for devs simply because its one of the easier systems to actually test data on, CD which is more than enough for a small game.

Your Idea there there has been no dev stuff on the NeoGeo is out out touch with reality.

You're idea about flashcarts killing development are way out of touch with reality. See what I did there.

 

[Razoola]

You're idea about flashcarts killing development are way out of touch with reality. See what I did there.

You need to re read what I said previously and also check your reasoning centre. Professional homebrew development and amateur stuff are entirely different things btw.

 

[SmokeMonster]

You need to re read what I said previously and also check your reasoning centre. Professional homebrew development and amateur stuff are entirely different things btw.

I don't think there are faults in my reasoning or your own, we're just of different opinions on a few points. I have great respect for what you do and take everything you say seriously. You have immense experience as a professional developer, and I have just been part of various independent scenes for a few years.

 

[ReplicaX]

I don't think there are faults in my reasoning or your own, we're just of different opinions on a few points. I have great respect for what you do and take everything you say seriously. You have immense experience as a professional developer, and I have just been part of various independent scenes for a few years.

I believe my foretelling is over justified at this point and by your own doing. No clarification required, just a waste of time.

 

[fenikso]

I don't need a flash cart. A multi cart without all of the hacked/proto bs and a fair sized chunk of the neo library would be more than enough for me. If it worked on both MVS and the home console it would be best of all possible worlds.

 

[SmokeMonster]

I believe my foretelling is over justified at this point and by your own doing. No clarification required, just a waste of time.

I'll be the first to admit that there are far greater minds that my own in this thead. As far as inexperience goes though, at least I'm not suggesting that a multi-cart should be able to read/write savegame and hi-scores data through the cart slot. That is just fucking retarded.

 

[aoiddr]

I don't need a flash cart. A multi cart without all of the hacked/proto bs and a fair sized chunk of the neo library would be more than enough for me. If it worked on both MVS and the home console it would be best of all possible worlds.

Who would want to pay $300 on a multi-cart that can't play every game?

Also, there are some useful hacked versions of games out there... For example, SVC Chaos Plus allows you to use a number of missing characters like Athena.

 

[Fygee]

UniBIOS also allows that as well. Most of the hacks on the 161-1, for example, are just versions of the games with boss characters unlocked from the start. The rest are totally useless color swaps.

 

[darksoft]

Its a double edged sword.

I agree such a device would not kill the community but it could certainly put a death nail in NGD and other professional homebrew titles if there is not a way to stop the device using those games. If the maker of such device cared about that they would build in a way to lock out games if the homebrew game makers so desire that.

Even MAME never supported the latest games in that respect.

Then in relation to official Neo Geo games you will probably be limited to garou / kof 99 etc protos like the multicarts use unless the maker spends the extra effort to do it right (something that did not happen with the cps2 device).

All in all it can be what kills the scene of new titles so you have to think carefully about what it would mean.

Personally like other people mention while there is NGD making games on the NeoGeo it could be better to do one of the other systems first.

Raz

It's very interesting how you speak about hardware and how you pretend to be a guru when we both know your knowledge of electronics is very limited.

This is not the thread to speak about this and I open a special one so that everybody including you, could have their say, why aren't you using it?

 

[theMot]

Time for some drama. Ooohhh yeah.

 

[darksoft]

Time for some drama. Ooohhh yeah.

This is the thread to discuss these things: http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...morality-etc&p=3884681&viewfull=1#post3884681

 

[Razoola]

It's very interesting how you speak about hardware and how you pretend to be a guru when we both know your knowledge of electronics is very limited.

This is not the thread to speak about this and I open a special one so that everybody including you, could have their say, why aren't you using it?

I know enough about the CPS2 hardware to see the shortfalls in your device, you do not need electronic experience to see that. I'm not saying your design is bad but its just not what it could have been and I'm sure if you do a MK2 you can address these issues to make something that is better and costs less to build. This goes back to the roll a project leader plays in a programming team I brought up in the NGD thread, they do not always need to be programmers.

Building hardware is something I am not good at. Knowing what the built hardware should be doing, how it should work and what is possible (capable of) I am very knowledgeable in. For NeoGeo I already see the issues you will face with some games (the kof99/garou is just a couple I highlight), there are other issues on the game side that you may not be aware of.

As I have just told you privately I am not against such a device for the NeoGeo, you just need to think about its impact in the scene and see if there are things you can do to minimise that. The prime one in NeoGeo land I would say is NG. I have in passing had conversation with them given suggestions relating to protections so I kind of have a feel of where they are on developing on the NeoGeo. Weather they take on those suggestions I do not know.

 

[Mendel]

nobody has even ripped the ngdev team games (other than original last hope cause apparently that didn´t have special pcbs?), so I suppose a multicart wouldn´t be able to play them then.

 

[Razoola]

nobody has even ripped the ngdev team games, so I suppose a multicart wouldn´t be able to play them then.

Darksoft is talking about a possible flash cart and not a multicart. Both are totally different with their own advantages and disadvantages. If your just about playing games and nothing else a multicart is far superior providing its done correctly.

 

[Razoola]

This is the thread to discuss these things: http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...morality-etc&p=3884681&viewfull=1#post3884681

That thread is totally unrealated, we are talking about hardware implementation here and not legal stuffs.

 

[Mendel]

Darksoft is talking about a possible flash cart and not a multicart. Both are totally different with their own advantages and disadvantages. If your just about playing games and nothing else a multicart is far superior providing its done correctly.

Well the flash cart would still need the roms. As long as there are no roms of the games anywhere around then I dont think they can be played and thus there would be no threat to these indie devs that bothered to design proper pcbs that dont have easily rippable rom chips.

Are you worried about crossed swords 2 with this regard? I would hope people would have the common sense not to use it with a flashcart. In fact if there is a way to stop the flashcart from playing such a recent rom, I would encourage darksoft to implement such a lock.

 

[Razoola]

Well the flash cart would still need the roms. As long as there are no roms of the games anywhere around then I dont think they can be played and thus there would be no threat to these indie devs that bothered to design proper pcbs that dont have easily rippable rom chips.

Are you worried about crossed swords 2 with this regard? I would hope people would have the common sense not to use it with a flashcart. In fact if there is a way to stop the flashcart from playing such a recent rom, I would encourage darksoft to implement such a lock.

No issues with CS2.

This is related to indie DEVs like NGD. I agree there must be a way for any such device to stop the upload of indie games if those game makers so choose and request. This would mean a two way approach. First would be the locking out of games from being uploaded (like the CPS2device will do with the phoenix sets). Second would be a method implemented into the device so the game maker can detect it and thus add their on protection on top.

I not against such a flash device by any means, I'm just not blind to some of the potential consequences either.

 

[xsq]

I think what most people (myself included) want, is a way to play good roms of all available (original) SNK(P) games on original hardware (plus possibly the SSIII hitbox fix, Ghostlop, Ironclad etc) and without having to sift through hacks.

A good multicart would be awesome and fill all of those needs... the features ReplicaX mentioned would be sweet, but are not really needed to make this very desirable. The stuff NTM did with the 120in1 (hiding games/hacks, multislot kinda setup etc) is a great starting point tho.