Electric and Hybrid cars

[NeoSneth]

Our battery technology still sucks. Too heavy and doesn't hold enough juice. I do like them once the tech improves.

Covid, OTOH is the real MVP in terms of cutting emissions and pollution.

Where would you draw the line as good battery? Li-Ion was a massive leap forward compared to NiMH.

 

[Neo Alec]

There isn't a big need for charging stations. Most people will use their all-electric cars for short daily in-town trips, and keep a plugin or hybrid gas/electric car around for the occasional longer distance. That's my plan anyway. The idea that people will have time to stop and charge somewhere for an hour is silly. At least at restaurants and hotels it might make sense

 

[FAT$TACKS]

Kind of on an aside here.

One of the things I've seen is people bitching about is the high voltage in cars. I know some people who do first responder stuff such as volunteer firemen for example, who have been talking about the classes and such they have been given about the possible electrical hazard of a damaged electric/hybrid at an accident and issues with the batteries catching fire. I don't know of any incident of that happening here but I've seen some of those videos where the batteries catch fire.

I kind of feel like, that it sucks, I've seen way more normal cars catch fire so I don't think it's as big of a deal as it's being made out to be.

It kind of reminds me of back in the day when people used to bitch about magnesium wheels on a car catching fire. Don't know that ever happened around here either.

As to being able to have an electric or hybrid here, you are pretty much stuck with the dealership for any needed repairs. I don't know of any shops local that will work on them and I know of several dealerships and used car lots that won't sell used hybrid cars, they just send them off to auction when the get one on trade. I asked several about if they get used ones and was pretty much always told it was due to not having people to work on them or enough knowledge about them and battery condition, so it was easier not to deal with them rather than try to sell and support them.

Also, it mostly only tends to be the negative news stories about electric cars that seem to get the news. Because of that I see a lot of dealership warranty horror stories, though again I know this is an everyday thing with normal cars, but it isn't in the news unless it is something really unusual. It's clear that there is still a lot of forces at work to hold back the adoption of electric vehicles. I would like the technology to take off though. The instant full torque take off and crazy fast acceleration they can be capable of seems like they could be really fun to drive, with their low center of gravity from batteries under the car. I should think they could make some great sports cars once things get more adopted.

I really don't like the design direction that some of the makers are taking. The BMW I3 is kind of so ugly that its cute, and I can't stand any thing I've seen of that Mustang Mach-E. That Tesla Cyber truck is kind of cool, but it's like someone really wanted to have a DeLorean but needed the hauling capacity of a full size pick up. It's huge and I don't think would even fit in most people's garages. I've never seen a Prius that made me think it was a nice looking car. Nissan Leaf isn't any prettier either.

The next city over has a fleet fueling place for natural gas powered vehicles. We're like the middle east of natural gas so I'm kind of surprised that didn't take off better than it did. I always felt like if they can manage to safely contain that for a vehicle, then why are the hydrogen vehicles not getting any more traction than they are. They would deal with the really hot places and cold weather a lot better than batteries I should think. I don't know a lot about it but it is another technology I would like to see get more traction.

 

[NeoSneth]

Kind of on an aside here.

One of the things I've seen is people bitching about is the high voltage in cars. I know some people who do first responder stuff such as volunteer firemen for example, who have been talking about the classes and such they have been given about the possible electrical hazard of a damaged electric/hybrid at an accident and issues with the batteries catching fire. I don't know of any incident of that happening here but I've seen some of those videos where the batteries catch fire.

I kind of feel like, that it sucks, I've seen way more normal cars catch fire so I don't think it's as big of a deal as it's being made out to be.

It's a good topic, but I kind of touched on it with regards to energy density. Gasoline is 100 times more energy dense than current li-ion battery. which one is more dangerous? It is true that as batteries increase their density, they are becoming more dangerous. The concern there is more with regards to phones and portables than vehicles. Your phone is already a mini bomb that could blow your hand off if it was all released at once. That has never happened. Imagine some of the phone fires if those batteries were 10x dense, 100x? There is a reason airplanes limit the size of battery packs already, and that will likely get worse as batteries improve.

Even prior to Elon joining, Tesla was working on battery safety. It does make sense to have basic safety courses for first responders regarding battery technology. It's a different danger, but not inherently more dangerous. There are endless videos of idiots using knives to cut open their phones out of curiosity, not realizing that stabbing the battery is bad.

 

[kitkit.com]

Electric car is not for everyone. You need to have the mindset and open to change before you should consider buying an electric vehicle. You also need to ask yourself the following questions:

(1) How many miles do I drive each day? Average American drives 30 to 50 miles per day
(2) Would I be taking the electric car for traveling?
(3) Would I be able to charge the electric car at home? Ideally, you would need 240volt Level 2 charging. You might not be able to charge it if you live in an apartment.
(4) Does my city/state have dealership to support repair for electric vehicle?
(5) Does my state provide any incentive? Some states provide $2,500 to $5,000 cash rebate
(6) Does my city provide any incentive? Some cities provide cash rebate
(7) Would I make enough to fully take advantage of the $7,500 federal tax credit? (Federal credit ran out for Tesla and GM; Nissan will be next)

I personally own 3 full electric cars:

Mitsubishi I-Miev, 62 miles range (from April 2014 to present, $8700 out of the door after $7,500 Fed and $2,500 CA credit)
Volkswagen Golf Electric, 83 miles range (from August 2017 to March 2020, $13,200 out of the door after $7,500 Fed and $2,500 CA credit)
Tesla Model 3 long range, 325 miles range (from Dec 2020 to now, $53,500 out of the door after $1,875 Fed and $2,500 CA credit)

I have solar panels installed at home so I am charging for free. I have nothing but positive experience with electric vehicle and I don't foresee myself buying a gas vehicle in the future. Here are the pros and my experience:

(1) Low to no maintenance: I have owned the Mitsubishi I-Miev for 6 years with zero issue. One repair was done on the VW E-Golf under warranty. Tesla 3 has been great. I have spent less than $500 for maintenance for all 3 vehicles for the past 6 years, but repair must be done at dealership.
(2) Say goodbye to gas station: I charge my car at home. With 240 volt Level 2 charging, full charge is done overnight while I am sleeping
(3) Lower fuel cost: Almost $4 per gallon for gas in CA. I would be spending 1/4 of the cost for electricity (without solar) for charging my electric vehicles
(4) Fun to drive: Instant torque. The Mitsubishi and VW E-Golf are great for city driving. The Tesla 3 can go 0-60 in 3.7 secs with acceleration boost.
(5) Fine for long trip: I drove my Tesla 3 from San Francisco to LA last year. I only had to charge once and it took about 35 to 45 mins to charge at Tesla Supercharger station which was manageable. Currently, only Tesla has reliable infrastructure for fast charging. For other brand, you will need to find Level 3 (full charge within an hr) charging station such as Chargpoint or Evgo
(6) Auto pilot/Full self-drive function on Tesla: I did not purchase full self drive (which cost $10,000 now) for my Tesla but Auto pilot comes with it. Auto pilot is great on freeway as the Tesla steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane and it even works at night!

Anyways, if you are not ready to buy a full electric vehicle, a Plug-in Hybrid (not a Hybrid) is a great alternative. If you only plan to use the electric vehicle for short commutate, you can buy a used EV. The EV technology is improving each year. You should do your research before jumping into the market.

 

[norton9478]

In Futureamerica, you will only need enough range to get to the highspeed rail station.

 

[norton9478]

We should get one as we only pay $00.04 to $00.07 a KWH for electricity.

 

[NGT]

My friend has a Tesla. They just packed up, rentedtheir home, and did an air bnb cross country trip. Just takes a little more planning, but he's been fine. His kids are on DL and he works from home anyways.

If I had Tesla money, I'd look for a newer all electric truck. Honestly though, i do really like the "if i run out of juice, i just get gas" part of my fusion. Don't think I'd care of I got 244 miles per charge though.

 

[smokehouse]

With the weather being what it is...I'm curious how all electrics handle prolonged, sub freezing temps. I know the I've spent years around electric articulating man-lifts and they're freaking terrible when it is cold. Sluggish and lower power until they are allowed to warm up.

I'd also be curious how the traction control is on them...all that instant torque isn't great on icy roads.

All electric is definitely our future, but I'll be honest when I say that we're not there yet. When our power grid cannot handle 14+ days below freezing, they most certainly cannot handle it if everyone had to plug their cars in at night.

 

[evil wasabi]

With the weather being what it is...I'm curious how all electrics handle prolonged, sub freezing temps. I know the I've spent years around electric articulating man-lifts and they're freaking terrible when it is cold. Sluggish and lower power until they are allowed to warm up.

I'd also be curious how the traction control is on them...all that instant torque isn't great on icy roads.

All electric is definitely our future, but I'll be honest when I say that we're not there yet. When our power grid cannot handle 14+ days below freezing, they most certainly cannot handle it if everyone had to plug their cars in at night.

The instant torque can probably be fixed with software. The sub freezing conditions, however, has to be a problem for batteries.

A lot of Tesla owners are potential solar panel/roof customers. The Tesla owners I know have the power wall and panels, and want roof, even if the price math doesn’t make sense to upgrade.

 

[smokehouse]

The instant torque can probably be fixed with software. The sub freezing conditions, however, has to be a problem for batteries.

A lot of Tesla owners are potential solar panel/roof customers. The Tesla owners I know have the power wall and panels, and want roof, even if the price math doesn’t make sense to upgrade.

Solar...that another interesting topic.

I think that living where I do, some kind of wind generator/storage would be a better match. Just some rough numbers, but we don't max out well in the usable sun department, especially in winter. With systems costing what they do, it's a minimum of a 10 year ROI just to break even...and that's if the system doesn't get beat to hell in the process.

As a people, we have a long way to go before we can really be off of coal power. Nearly every time I look at possible alternatives, the cost involved is nuts and the break even is way out there in years.

 

[FAT$TACKS]

Solar panels don't charge your Tesla very much when they are covered in ice and snow. I suppose people have to get up there and clean them off, maybe when they clean their satellite dish.

 

[NeoSneth]

With the weather being what it is...I'm curious how all electrics handle prolonged, sub freezing temps. I know the I've spent years around electric articulating man-lifts and they're freaking terrible when it is cold. Sluggish and lower power until they are allowed to warm up.

I'd also be curious how the traction control is on them...all that instant torque isn't great on icy roads.

All electric is definitely our future, but I'll be honest when I say that we're not there yet. When our power grid cannot handle 14+ days below freezing, they most certainly cannot handle it if everyone had to plug their cars in at night.

The torque doesnt have to be instant. Tesla 3's AWD is pretty robust. They are heavy cars tho.
The battery does perform worse in the cold, but the system calculates range based on it. Tesla's will use elevation, temp, and weather to actively update it's remaining range. A relatively downhill trip will already calculate the increased range.

 

[Fygee]

I have a 2017 Chevy Volt with premium trim that I was able to get for half the cost of new two years ago. ($27k after all the taxes, fees, and extended warranty)

I fill my gas tank once a month and it's $20-$25 each time as it's only an 8-gallon tank. I charge it at home everyday and I get between 35-45 miles on battery with a lot of freeway driving.

Something to keep in mind is that if you don't have an EV charger at work you can use, you'll need to invest in one which will run you about $500, along with needing a 220v outlet. Most EVs or plug-in hybrids will come with a 110v standard outlet charger, but it's sloooooooow.

If you're looking for something that is reasonably priced, head over to Carmax and nab the 2019 Volt. It's the last in it's model series, charges twice as fast as the previous ones, and has a newer entertainment system.

Otherwise, look into a used Tesla, a used Chevy Bolt if you don't mind a smaller vehicle, or the new Ford Mustang EV (with the full $7500 credit).

 

[neo_mao]

My friend recently got one of the Tesla SUVs - sorry if anyone here is a fan, but I think that thing is damn ugly.

 

[evil wasabi]

Solar...that another interesting topic.

I think that living where I do, some kind of wind generator/storage would be a better match. Just some rough numbers, but we don't max out well in the usable sun department, especially in winter. With systems costing what they do, it's a minimum of a 10 year ROI just to break even...and that's if the system doesn't get beat to hell in the process.

As a people, we have a long way to go before we can really be off of coal power. Nearly every time I look at possible alternatives, the cost involved is nuts and the break even is way out there in years.

Where you live, redundancies matter. A solar panel may be more efficient than solar roof on a sunny day, but what about overcast? What about photovoltaic paint? And what about a system where the houses feed their surplus back into the grid and get paid for it? We have a lot of room to improve our infrastructure and system, if we are allowed and afforded the opportunity.

 

[norton9478]

I get about 80% of my electrical power from renewable sources.

 

[smokehouse]

I get about 80% of my electrical power from renewable sources.

I get 100% of my power from whomever will put juice over the copper and gas in the pipes...

...and speaking of natural gas...being that my heating, hot water, and stove are all running off of it, rumor is my ass is about to be stretched out pretty wide when I get Feb's bill...

 

[NeoSneth]

I have a 2017 Chevy Volt with premium trim that I was able to get for half the cost of new two years ago. ($27k after all the taxes, fees, and extended warranty)


Something to keep in mind is that if you don't have an EV charger at work you can use, you'll need to invest in one which will run you about $500, along with needing a 220v outlet. Most EVs or plug-in hybrids will come with a 110v standard outlet charger, but it's sloooooooow.

Almost all residences have 240V going into the property, but we use 120V across everything. It's not too expensive to have the quick charger placed at home.

 

[norton9478]

I get 100% of my power from whomever will put juice over the copper and gas in the pipes...

...and speaking of natural gas...being that my heating, hot water, and stove are all running off of it, rumor is my ass is about to be stretched out pretty wide when I get Feb's bill...

I pay $00.04/kwh for hydro power. The problem is when the village utility goes over it's ppa allotment and has to buy electricity on the open market. At that point, the price depends largely on natural gas prices.

Right now, it isn't just natural gas futures rising, heating oil is rising too.

 

[norton9478]

I have a 240 line already in my garage.

I'm guessing that the prior owner was using it to connect to a generator (funky shaped plug)?

I would still have to do some rewiring though to get it ready of an electric car as it isn't on a separate circuit.

 

[Lastblade]

Where would you draw the line as good battery? Li-Ion was a massive leap forward compared to NiMH.

I think once we get over 3/400 miles range and can charge half the battery in minutes (and not hours), we are in business.

 

[norton9478]

Too bad the fuel cells never came to fruition.

 

[smokehouse]

Almost all residences have 240V going into the property, but we use 120V across everything. It's not too expensive to have the quick charger placed at home.

Eh...it depends. It all depends on how big your service is. Thankfully, the only 240v device I now have is my AC condenser, but up until a few weeks back, I also had a 240v stove. My service is large (and modern) enough that I could add another 240 circuit...but that wasn't the case with my previous house.

I pay $00.04/kwh for hydro power. The problem is when the village utility goes over it's ppa allotment and has to buy electricity on the open market. At that point, the price depends largely on natural gas prices.

Right now, it isn't just natural gas futures rising, heating oil is rising too.

We currently pay $.30/therm for natural gas...which isn't a horrid price. In a hard month, our bill is not much more than $100, typically less. Example, in Jan we used 143 therms and it was a really cold month.

With this polar vortex being what it is, Feb might be double that. We haven't hit freezing in 14 days, today will be the first day with a temp of 20 in 12 days...so that's lots of heating even when the stat is turned down.

In a neighboring town, my brother is paying $.80/therm and due to some shitty dealing by their town, their per therm price is slated to go up 5x, possibly more for the months of Feb. If I was in that boat, my 143 therms would run me $572 vs the typical $42.90.

Thankfully, I don't have to dick with heating oil...

 

[LoneSage]

My heating is free, but it only turns on from November 15 to March 15. No thermostat. That's the norm here.