Improve Neo CD Peformance

NeoTrof

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I'm sure this is a stupid question, but please indulge me.

When the concept of the Polymega was first discussed, it was appealing to me as a new, improved way to play original Neo CD games (meaning faster load times). Now we know it just copies the ROM and then emulates, so it defeats that purpose.

I am not knowledgeable at all about technical issues, so I am wondering how difficult it would be to create / upgrade an existing Neo CD with a faster CD-ROM (CDZ on steroids). I imagine you would need to upgrade much more than just the CD drive, but can someone give me a Reader's Digest version of how hard this would be?

Thank you.

- Chris (NeoTrof)
 

Burning Fight!!

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Someone already created an upgrade that speeds up the CD drive: http://furrtek.free.fr/sdloader/index.htm

Source code and schematics are open, so if you really want to know, get to work. Someone with enough knowledge and motivation could probably make a SATA/IDE CDROM attachment thingy for it.
 

HeavyMachineGoob

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I think Furrtek has already concluded that the CD drive interface and the RAM chips only move and fill with data so fast. There’s already an upper limit to the current system in place and the SD Loader hits that limit. You’d have to redesign most of the NGCD system if you wanted faster loading.
 

SignOfGoob

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Not without a TON of work and the max increase wouldn’t be very impressive anyway due to other bottlenecks most likely. If you don’t like load times then don’t play Neo CD.

It’s a pretty pointless system, the Neo CD. It was a 3/4 baked way to see if they could get more fans with games that would cost $50 instead of $250. The thing is though…it didn’t work. The games take forever to load and the later ones don’t fit period. The maniacs were never dumping their AESs and the punters will only own a PlayStation. SNK dumped it for good reason.

None of that 90s economy exists anymore. MVS carts were the most expensive way to play Neo but now they are the cheapest. Rather than reinvent the wheel just get an MVS. Games are better and cheaper. The Neo SD loader also makes sense if one already has the system…but you still can’t play KOF 2000 on it…

FWIW I was a big fan of my Neo CD when I had it. It was great to play KOF 98 with no compromise before it was on any console. I spent most of my time in practice mode doing combos in those days so the load times weren’t a huge deal for me. Like I said though, that was a long time ago. None of the factors that made me go with Neo CD exist anymore. I eventually bought a MVS copy of 98 for less than what my CD version cost. I can also play KOF 2000+ on my MVS, beat Metal Slug in half the time, etc.

Just let the Neo CD be the sucky thing that it is.
 

Neo Alec

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I think Furrtek has already concluded that the CD drive interface and the RAM chips only move and fill with data so fast. There’s already an upper limit to the current system in place and the SD Loader hits that limit. You’d have to redesign most of the NGCD system if you wanted faster loading.
This seems to be more or less the standard answer each time this topic has come up over the years, even before the SD Loader.

The OG Xbox also makes a great Neo Geo CD, using Lantus360's old NGCD emulator which was drop in and play using original NGCD discs.
I remember back in the day my PC CD drive wouldn't work with which ever NGCD emulator I tried. This is a good alternative for using real discs. The Dreamcast also comes to mind.
 

HeavyMachineGoob

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Just let the Neo CD be the sucky thing that it is.

The Neo Geo CD's biggest strength is with the small early releases, or just small games in general. Games like NAM-1975, Magician Lord, Baseball Stars Professional, Baseball Stars 2, Blue's Journey, Ninja Combat, Ninja Commando, Thrash Rally, League Bowling, Puzzled, Crossed Swords, Top Hunter, Viewpoint, Last Resort and tons of other games like those are all hideously expensive on MVS and AES, but they are very affordable on NGCD or even free if you like CD-Rs as you should.

Sure, you could use a NeoSD but that's still expensive for a lot of people and although the typical 161-in-1 banana cart has some of the above games, it doesn't have them all and really, the 161 has a very spotty selection of games.
 
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NeoTrof

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Thanks for the responses everyone. Should have mentioned that I was familiar with the SD loader.

I think Furrtek has already concluded that the CD drive interface and the RAM chips only move and fill with data so fast. There’s already an upper limit to the current system in place and the SD Loader hits that limit. You’d have to redesign most of the NGCD system if you wanted faster loading.

This makes tons of sense. The limitations of the media (CD-ROM) will always be there anyway.

The initial question came from my 7 year old. I have AES, MVS and CD and he was asking about loading times and other differences between versions (in this case Metal Slug - which has played to death on my cabinet, but gets frustrated with loading and other differences of the CD version). He asked why we couldn't just upgrade the CD drive. I told him it wasn't that simple, but could not tell him why.
 

Neo Alec

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You're going to explain this to a 7-year-old? Is he learning about patience too? Maybe explain to him that when I was younger new carts were too expensive, so we had to learn to put up with the CD loading time.
 

Heinz

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You're going to explain this to a 7-year-old? Is he learning about patience too? Maybe explain to him that when I was younger new carts were too expensive, so we had to learn to put up with the CD loading time.
Back in my day we didn't have the bleep blop video box, we used to kick an ole can of beans we did!
 

SignOfGoob

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You're going to explain this to a 7-year-old? Is he learning about patience too? Maybe explain to him that when I was younger new carts were too expensive, so we had to learn to put up with the CD loading time.

Yeah, if he understands money at all yet just explain that you could buy five CDs for every cart.
 

awbacon

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no matter how fast of a drive you could jam in there and get to transmit data there will be a bottleneck down the line on the bus or RAM somewhere.
 

Burning Fight!!

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You could consider the Neo CD as an AES system with a game copier that can't handle 100-mega shock games onward without hacking them to load from disc every time it needs new data for a level, sprite animation, etc. There aren't as many limitations as you guys may think, and the SD Loader, as some of you might remember, was 20x as fast initially as it is now before furrtek dialed it down to achieve stability. There's probably something that loads huge games in 2 seconds in some parallel universe.

But the MVS is the better product period, I wouldn't recommend getting into the CD system unless you already own one, even with the appeal of buring the cdromzors 4 free. An MVS board in a cab is the best option, and a consolized MVS is the second best option... I consider having access to softdips and not having "home" modifications forced on you very important, and you at least have the unibios to access that on an AES. The CD system however locks you in to home mode and there are games with exclusive changes to make the games more console-y, including difficulty, so you're stuck with whatever options the devs decided you could play with and not-quite arcade gameplay. It's decidely inferior.

...and I didn't even mention the absence of some cool games on the CD unit, where's 8 Man (Man 8 for HDR) and King of the Monsters?
 

NeoSneth

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I agree. A Neo CD is really just for enthusiasts at this point. It's pure novelty.
I would say that most of the load times are not that bad for the simpler games. It's only the later games that really test one's patience.
 

sirlynxalot

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I've emulated neoCD on dreamcast before and was pleasantly surprised how well things ran. The load times were a lot shorter too. I understand the DC's gdrom drive is a 12x speed drive, but I've heard that when reading CDs, including cd-r backups of the commercial gdrom games, it switches to something slower like 4x. No doubt this is the case for the neogeo cd games as well, but it still felt much faster than a neogeo cd unit.
 
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