Those companies..........what? They lost the source codes for their games?

Liquid Snake

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Sega - Sonic the Hedgehog (MD/Genesis), House of the Dead (arcade), Panzer Dragoon RPG (saturn)

Not sure if those are rumors, but I still remember Sega couldn't port HOTD perfectly on Saturn due to source codes lost..........

Really? How can that be? Don't you have archive?
 

DevilRedeemed

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Irem - R-type 3
Sega - Sonic the Hedgehog (MD/Genesis), House of the Dead (arcade), Panzer Dragoon RPG (saturn)

Not sure if those are rumors, but I still remember Sega couldn't port HOTD perfectly on Saturn due to source codes lost..........

Really? How can that be? Don't you have archive?

hotd would never have received a perfect port given the power of the model 2 board compared to Saturn's hardware.
However, had it been done in-house by one of the AM teams it would have been a lot more amazing than that which was pulled off by Tantalus. That was a travesty
Has little to do with the source code being missing or not in this case I would think
 
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fake

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What I don't understand is why they can't take the Panzer Dragoon Saga discs (for example) and just decompile them to retrieve the source code. What am I missing here?
 

Ip Man

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What I don't understand is why they can't take the Panzer Dragoon Saga discs (for example) and just decompile them to retrieve the source code. What am I missing here?

makes sense. same with konami and the ps2 silent hill games. the remastered collection for the ps3 and 360 were terrible because they were from an unfinished beta because konami lost the source code for the original games.
 

Kid Panda

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I don't think compiled games work like that. Once it hits the compiler it turns into something else. You guys gotta remember, most of the gaming companies only do it to make money, having any type of leftover hardrives/tapes/etc just isn't cost effective to them. I think Nintendo may be one of the only companies that keep archives of their own stuff and maybe a few others. Otherwise it's, "make the game, make the money", wash, rinse, and repeat.
 

pulstar

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As Kid Panda says, decompiling binaries of that size will result in something almost completely different from how the source code was originally. You'll have data and code interleaved in the file because of the structure of the binaries and it could take years to get it in a state where it could be recompiled again.

More likely than not it will be disassembled into assembly language and not whatever high level language was used to actually code the game. Maybe not so with the Saturn games, but it won't have the comments, labels etc that make code easier to read so it'll be confusing and hard to work through.

So, yeah, probably just as easy to start from scratch than disassembly the binaries.
 
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Renmauzo

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Another thing to remember is that the reality of 80's and 90's era game devs and publishers offices is that they were often cramped, disorganized, low-rent office space. Take a look at just about any office from that time and it's easy to see how this kind of stuff would get lost, stolen, or left behind when moving.

A number of years ago (2008 iirc), when I still worked retail at a videogame store, I had a regular that became a friend who was part of a demo/remodel crew that did office space. One afternoon, he showed me the stuff that Nintendo had just left behind when they moved their offices to a new building they had built (on a street they had the city name Virtual Way, lol): over a dozen NOS Super Nintendo consoles, about as many N64's, neon signage, boxes of NOS games, POP, demo kiosks...he asked the foreman who said he could have at it as no one else was interested.

Companies leave stuff and lose stuff, more often than not because many of them were very 'fly by the seat of your pants' with their daily operations.
 

Morden

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Not sure if those are rumors, but I still remember Sega couldn't port HOTD perfectly on Saturn due to source codes lost..........

Sega is notorious for losing sources of their own games. I remember reading an article in which the author had quotes from actual high level Sega employees claiming they have lost sources for most of their arcade games prior to Model 3. I remember them naming some of the System series, specifically. System 16, 18, 24 ... Supposedly, this happened, because Sega moved their offices so many times.
 

Lastblade

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It is pretty crazy to think software companies acting so cavalier with their own source codes. I would think companies nowadays do a much better job archiving since they can remaster/remake games every generation.
 

Cylotron

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well... it happens.

I realize it's on a much smaller scale, but the 1st dozen or so tracks I made are no more. The finished tracks in .mp3/.flac are still around, but the original project files I did not backup so can't go back and re-master/remix them.
 

fake

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As Kid Panda says, decompiling binaries of that size will result in something almost completely different from how the source code was originally. You'll have data and code interleaved in the file because of the structure of the binaries and it could take years to get it in a state where it could be recompiled again.

More likely than not it will be disassembled into assembly language and not whatever high level language was used to actually code the game. Maybe not so with the Saturn games, but it won't have the comments, labels etc that make code easier to read so it'll be confusing and hard to work through.

So, yeah, probably just as easy to start from scratch than disassembly the binaries.

Ah, good info. I didn't realize it would come out all garbled. Sucks that we'll never get a Panzer Dragoon Saga rerelease.

It is pretty crazy to think software companies acting so cavalier with their own source codes. I would think companies nowadays do a much better job archiving since they can remaster/remake games every generation.

Seriously! Even back then, how could they have thought "Sure, overwriting this drive is fine!" They probably didn't have remasters and whatnot in mind, but still. How could they think they'd never need it again? I really think most software companies back then were backing up to data tapes.
 

gusmoney

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Wasn't it Raiden II that they lost the source code to and the security on it is so good that they couldn't even reverse engineer it?
 

Morden

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Ah, good info. I didn't realize it would come out all garbled. Sucks that we'll never get a Panzer Dragoon Saga rerelease.

Never say never. There's always emulation. Almost all of the retro re-releases are emulated images of original games, be it Virtual Console titles, PlayStation and PS2 classics on PS3, SNK games on various platforms, that Irem collection published by DotEmu, every Sega Megadrive collection and so on. Panzer Dragoon Saga isn't popular enough to be re-released. If Square lost the source code of Final Fantasy VII or VIII, they'd still figure it out and release it, because the demand is much higher. Where there's money to be made, there's a way.

Wasn't it Raiden II that they lost the source code to and the security on it is so good that they couldn't even reverse engineer it?

Raiden Fighters games got a Xbox 360 release back in 2008, along with Raiden Fighters 2. MAME support came later, around 2014. The thing with even the nastiest protections is, there's always someone who'll eventually either figure it out, or hack their way around it. The reason why it takes so long with some games is the amount of interest. The popular platforms come first.

Recently, a bunch of brainiacs has figured out the way to bypass Gaelco's suicide protection, which remained uncracked for ages. It took this long, because Gaelco's games aren't as popular as, say, CPS series of boards.

Plus, there's a difference between making something playable and actually cracking it. CPS2 was blown wide open only recently, with the ability to revive boards using genuine ROMs rather than phoenix ones. Banjo Tooie protection was finally cracked four years ago or so, while the game has been fully playable on emulators for ages.
 

SML

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I was going to say Blood, but I guess it's been "found." Maybe? Some people from Monolith say they have it but don't know if it's legal to release.
 

Kid Panda

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Never say never. There's always emulation. Almost all of the retro re-releases are emulated images of original games, be it Virtual Console titles, PlayStation and PS2 classics on PS3, SNK games on various platforms, that Irem collection published by DotEmu, every Sega Megadrive collection and so on. Panzer Dragoon Saga isn't popular enough to be re-released. If Square lost the source code of Final Fantasy VII or VIII, they'd still figure it out and release it, because the demand is much higher. Where there's money to be made, there's a way.



Raiden Fighters games got a Xbox 360 release back in 2008, along with Raiden Fighters 2. MAME support came later, around 2014. The thing with even the nastiest protections is, there's always someone who'll eventually either figure it out, or hack their way around it. The reason why it takes so long with some games is the amount of interest. The popular platforms come first.

Recently, a bunch of brainiacs has figured out the way to bypass Gaelco's suicide protection, which remained uncracked for ages. It took this long, because Gaelco's games aren't as popular as, say, CPS series of boards.

Plus, there's a difference between making something playable and actually cracking it. CPS2 was blown wide open only recently, with the ability to revive boards using genuine ROMs rather than phoenix ones. Banjo Tooie protection was finally cracked four years ago or so, while the game has been fully playable on emulators for ages.

It's sad that the CPS re-encryption is behind a paywall.
 

Jon

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A friend of mine actually owns the Azel: Panzer Dragoon RPG prototype discs. I wish I had a picture...

They are on Saturn CDR's that just say Sega Saturn on them. They are, not sure if I'm using the right word here, pressed discs.

Jon
 

NeoSneth

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Imagine an office full of paperwork, half assembled computers, and cigarette butts.
The code probably existed on a few floppies and harddrives.

I have dozens of old hardrives, and no idea which ones work.
 

skate323k137

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I don't think compiled games work like that. Once it hits the compiler it turns into something else. You guys gotta remember, most of the gaming companies only do it to make money, having any type of leftover hardrives/tapes/etc just isn't cost effective to them. I think Nintendo may be one of the only companies that keep archives of their own stuff and maybe a few others. Otherwise it's, "make the game, make the money", wash, rinse, and repeat.

Pretty much this as sad as it is. I wish it was more like record labels that kept a catalogue but it is what it is.
 

pulstar

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Ah right. Yeah, Arcadehacker released a method for CPS1/1.5 and CPS2 so they can all be put back to stock for anyone with an Arduino now which is cool, all free as well. He has some interesting posts on his blog about the security system present in the CPS systems as well, which are an interesting read.
 

gusmoney

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Raiden Fighters games got a Xbox 360 release back in 2008, along with Raiden Fighters 2. MAME support came later, around 2014.

I cannot find my source on this but I thought that was why the Raiden Fighters series was developed so that they could basically re-release Raiden II by essentially coding a new game due to the loss of the OG.

Raiden II is a pretty damn popular game. I think the encryption is just that good, thus the delay and not for lack of popularity or interest.

Further to my point, I did see that Raiden II was just recently able to be dumped to MAME.
 

Liquid Snake

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If Sega can remake HOTD 1 & 2 then I'll be a happy man............................
 
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