Tonight’s debate

[SC-ULTRA]

Here's a good primer if you're interested:

Inside the World Uyghur Congress: The US-backed right-wing regime-change network seeking the ‘fall of China’ - The Grayzone

While posing as a grassroots human rights organization, the World Uyghur Congress is a US-funded and directed separatist network that has forged alliances with far-right ethno-nationalist groups. The goal spelled out by its founders is clear: the destabilization of China and regime change in...

thegrayzone.com

@SC-ULTRA You are not going to get accurate unbiased info from openly anti-China sources such as The Epoch Times (Falun Gong) and The Diplomat, US-funded organizations (XJDP/ASPI), and Western state media (BBC).

Unlike Palestine, Muslim majority countries do not view the situation in Xianjiang as a genocide. What does that tell you?

The West has a long history of fomenting division and unrest in designated enemy countries (China, Russia, Venezuela, Iran, etc), funding fringe groups, imposing sanctions, and disseminating propaganda in order to cause destabilization and ultimately regime change.

Just because I am pointing this out does not mean I endorse the actions of the governments of these countries. However, I do support engaging with them, mutually beneficial trade, and following libertarian principles of peace and prosperity with regard to foreign affairs.

When anyone escapes from a detention camp, gulag, etc. I tend to believe their account until proven otherwise because it’s all we’re going to get usually, but I can’t claim to know for sure what China has done or is doing and doubt any of us do really. Even the article you link to starts out with ““True or not.” I don’t expect or trust regimes to be open/honest about a genocide.

 

[Heinz]

Here's a good primer if you're interested:

Inside the World Uyghur Congress: The US-backed right-wing regime-change network seeking the ‘fall of China’ - The Grayzone

While posing as a grassroots human rights organization, the World Uyghur Congress is a US-funded and directed separatist network that has forged alliances with far-right ethno-nationalist groups. The goal spelled out by its founders is clear: the destabilization of China and regime change in...

thegrayzone.com

@SC-ULTRA You are not going to get accurate unbiased info from openly anti-China sources such as The Epoch Times (Falun Gong) and The Diplomat, US-funded organizations (XJDP/ASPI), and Western state media (BBC).

Unlike Palestine, Muslim majority countries do not view the situation in Xianjiang as a genocide. What does that tell you?

The West has a long history of fomenting division and unrest in designated enemy countries (China, Russia, Venezuela, Iran, etc), funding fringe groups, imposing sanctions, and disseminating propaganda in order to cause destabilization and ultimately regime change.

Just because I am pointing this out does not mean I endorse the actions of the governments of these countries. However, I do support engaging with them, mutually beneficial trade, and following libertarian principles of peace and prosperity with regard to foreign affairs.

Well you might be right and if you are I say fuck em

 

[LoneSage]

When anyone escapes from a detention camp, gulag, etc. I tend to believe their account until proven otherwise because it’s all we’re going to get usually, but I can’t claim to know for sure what China has done or is doing and doubt any of us do really. Even the article you link to starts out with ““True or not.” I don’t expect or trust regimes to be open/honest about a genocide.

You're OK with me now.

I visited in 2019 and went to length on here about it. I was followed for an entire day by a van and posted pictures to prove it. There is no point in trying to convince anyone.

On one hand you have a country that allows freedom of speech and access to web sites that allow people to freely communicate.

On the other hand you have a country that has blocked access to any web site that allows the free exchange of communication. Youtube, reddit, wikipedia, facebook, twitter, all not controlled by the Chinese government and all blocked.

I don't think anyone ever said we should go to war with China because of what happened or is happening inside China. It is enough that we can accept refugees from there and let them tell their story. Sanctions are enough.

 

[Taiso]

'sage, why are you still there?

 

[LoneSage]

Better question is why did America send the means of production to a dictatorship to the point 50 years later America depends on China?

 

[SouthtownKid]

Better question is why did America send the means of production to a dictatorship to the point 50 years later America depends on China?

Time for you to dive into the Nixon presidency... if you have access to any sites where you can read about it. It's actually really interesting and a lot more nuanced than was presented in our public schooling.

Although his normalizing of relations with China, while significantly reducing tensions at the time, does seem to have bit the US in the ass somewhat at this point. Unrelated to this conversation but also fascinating is his unwavering support of the Shah of Iran, and his thinking behind that.

 

[Heinz]

Thinking that by opening trade to China that they would slowly pivot to democracy or something less communist dictatorship was an odd position to take in the midst of the cold war. I guess when you need a source of cheap slaves to make plastic shit your ideological war goes out the window.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Thinking that by opening trade to China that they would slowly pivot to democracy or something less communist dictatorship was an odd position to take in the midst of the cold war.

You are making the common mistake of thinking the US (and western powers at large) give a single shit about democracy just because they talk about it all the time. They don't. Democracy is just a word to mask their real north star. They care about capitalism. And guess what? China has slowly pivoted toward capitalism in the decades since Nixon.

What maybe the US didn't predict (although maybe it wasn't even important to them to begin with) was that China would only cherry pick the aspects of capitalism they could use while still maintaining complete control.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Max, you're a blind dummy if you think the US government cares about democracy. They've busted up and helped overthrow democratic goverments all over the world and replaced them with brutal dictatorships who would play ball with the US capitalist agenda. Not once, not twice, not three times. Countless times. Surely you aren't disputing this.

 

[Heinz]

Western liberal democractic states with two-party preferred political landscapes are quite dictatorial when they feel the need to be. It's amusing to see the amalgamation (bipartisanship) occur over certain policies and legislation with basically no say from the people.

The democracy part is an illusion so you swallow it whole and don't choke.

 

[wikipejoe]

Western liberal democractic states with two-party preferred political landscapes are quite dictatorial when they feel the need to be. It's amusing to see the amalgamation (bipartisanship) occur over certain policies and legislation with basically no say from the people.

The democracy part is an illusion so you swallow it whole and don't choke.

Are you referring to Australia in this post?

 

[SouthtownKid]

Are you referring to Australia in this post?

ah well fuck.

 

[SouthtownKid]

wat happen

 

[wyo]

When anyone escapes from a detention camp, gulag, etc. I tend to believe their account until proven otherwise because it’s all we’re going to get usually, but I can’t claim to know for sure what China has done or is doing and doubt any of us do really. Even the article you link to starts out with ““True or not.” I don’t expect or trust regimes to be open/honest about a genocide.

JD Vance said this recently: “We have built a foreign policy of hectoring and moralizing and lecturing countries that don’t want anything to do with it. The Chinese have a foreign policy of building roads and bridges and feeding poor people.”

We are currently facilitating an actual genocide in Gaza with many thousands dead. We also instigated the war in Ukraine with hundreds of thousands dead. Maybe we could focus on not doing that instead of being massive hypocrites and crying about this comparatively mild repression WITH ZERO DEATHS.

 

[SC-ULTRA]

JD Vance said this recently: “We have built a foreign policy of hectoring and moralizing and lecturing countries that don’t want anything to do with it. The Chinese have a foreign policy of building roads and bridges and feeding poor people.”

We are currently facilitating an actual genocide in Gaza with many thousands dead. We also instigated the war in Ukraine with hundreds of thousands dead.

I don't disagree on this.

Maybe we could focus on not doing that instead of being massive hypocrites and crying about this comparatively mild repression WITH ZERO DEATHS.

According to what I can find the Gaza death toll estimate is somewhere around 41-43000, everyone knows this is happening.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-death-toll-how-many-palestinians-has-israels-campaign-killed-2024-07-25/

Israel-Gaza war in maps and charts: Live tracker

The latest death toll stands at 44,287 Palestinians and 1,139 people killed in Israel since October 7, 2023.

www.aljazeera.com

This one Gutmann guy had estimated 65,000 Falun Gong murdered but then I found this statement:

"the author's confidence was high that he had a genuinely conservative sample. However, the author's confidence
in his final estimate: a range of 9000 to 120,000 Falun Gong were killed for their organs from 2000 to 2008 was not
as high, as the size of the range implicitly acknowledges. Nonetheless, the mid-range number that Gutmann chose
as his best guess - 65,000 Falun Gong killed for their organs - has been widely accepted in the press. The reason for
this has less to do with the author touting the accuracy of the figure, and more to do with a deep human need to
contextualize tragedy with a specific number or benchmark"

So while this is probably still happening I don't think anyone has a real total and I think its a mistake to just assign some arbitrary number. But I also don't believe that causes the number to suddenly become zero either. Many people have reported this is happening.

An Update - The International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China

endtransplantabuse.org

The CCP Wages a Second Genocide—Against Falun Gong

Last year, both the Trump and Biden administrations determined that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is waging genocide against Uyghurs and other mostly ethnic Muslim communities in Xinjiang. This is a human-rights watershed, given that this atrocity is ongoing and authored by a powerful...

www.hudson.org

https://endtransplantabuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Bloody_Harvest-The_Slaughter-2016-Update-V3-and-Addendum-20170430.pdf

 

[famicommander]

Trump is claiming he will end birthright citizenship on day one of his second term with an executive order.

Flies directly in the face of the 14th Amendment.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Flies directly in the face of the 14th Amendment.

He probably doesn't realize that because he's only read up to 5 so far, and really only halfway understood the first and second.

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

Could have been born in Canada and would have the same German passport. The same goes for Donald when I think about it. The old world uses heritage.

 

[StevenK]

The old world uses heritage.

The merest hint of sporting prowess will do it too

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

I'm saying is that the birthright citizenship is more American than guns, Steven.

 

[StevenK]

Does America stop heavily pregnant tourists on this basis?

 

[SouthtownKid]

Does America stop heavily pregnant tourists on this basis?

Not so far.

 

[smokey]

Better question is why did America send the means of production to a dictatorship to the point 50 years later America depends on China?

It's called capitalism. Everything for money the rest doesn't count.

 

[prof]

According to what I can find the Gaza death toll estimate is somewhere around 41-43000, everyone knows this is happening.

This one Gutmann guy had estimated 65,000 Falun Gong murdered but then I found this statement:

"the author's confidence was high that he had a genuinely conservative sample. However, the author's confidence
in his final estimate: a range of 9000 to 120,000 Falun Gong were killed for their organs from 2000 to 2008 was not
as high, as the size of the range implicitly acknowledges. Nonetheless, the mid-range number that Gutmann chose
as his best guess - 65,000 Falun Gong killed for their organs - has been widely accepted in the press. The reason for
this has less to do with the author touting the accuracy of the figure, and more to do with a deep human need to
contextualize tragedy with a specific number or benchmark"

So while this is probably still happening I don't think anyone has a real total and I think its a mistake to just assign some arbitrary number. But I also don't believe that causes the number to suddenly become zero either. Many people have reported this is happening.

 

[smokey]

JD Vance said this recently: “We have built a foreign policy of hectoring and moralizing and lecturing countries that don’t want anything to do with it. The Chinese have a foreign policy of building roads and bridges and feeding poor people.”

We are currently facilitating an actual genocide in Gaza with many thousands dead. We also instigated the war in Ukraine with hundreds of thousands dead. Maybe we could focus on not doing that instead of being massive hypocrites and crying about this comparatively mild repression WITH ZERO DEATHS.

Yes you instigated the Ukrainian war by forcing them to give up their nuclear fleet and bombers and then promising them you would protect them. And then not doing it when Putin took Crimea by force. Right then and there he probably decided he would takethe whole country.

About Gaza I believe that Israel will do anything to make life in Gaza impossible so that people will have no other choice then to flee abroad. But to call it a genocide is just plain ridiculous. If they really wanted they could have killed every single gazan in 2 months. During the Rawandan genocide 1 million people were killed in ten days. That is half of the gazan population and they only had Kalashnikovs and machette's.

Israel sends text messages and handbills before they bomb a building, that why it takes so long to root out hamas which is firmly entrenched in gazan society. Gazans who don't agree or who are fags get the following treatment: