American Politics, How to Become Apathetic

[BoriquaSNK]

I'm gonna rant for a little bit, and hope some decent discussion comes out of it. Pardon me.

I've been a member here for a while, probably seven years now, and for those that know me I've definitely been a vocal one, for better or for worse.

I've definitely calmed down over the past year or so, as I get older with more and more responsibility, as the opinions that I so viciously defended before got more and more complex over time. Politically speaking, I'm evolving. I'm not moving right or left, it's more complex than that, but I am moving.

For example, I no longer consider myself a Democrat, not that I ever really felt comfortable with the label anyway. I'm definitely still socially liberal, I still believe that competent government could happen and should be the ideal that we strive for. I don't think equality for gays and lesbians is a political issue, I think it's a moral and civil rights issue. I believe in universal healthcare, and I think a single payer, Medicare-esque system would be the best economically and morally.

But I have a fierce belief in the second amendment, though I own no weapons, and I truly believe that aging quasi-governmental bodies, like the post office and Amtrak, would do far better as private companies. I think pot should be legal and tobacco less-regulated.

I'm complex.

I think Pres. Obama is still doing an exceptional job given the circumstances, I think he deserves far more credit than he's received for bringing this country back from the brink of collapse by making some very ugly decisions. I've also, and I can't believe I'm saying this, think a lot of the same things about Bush...to a much lesser degree mind you.

So, I'm looking at this bullshit with Jim Bunning blocking unemployment benefits, and I'm truly astounded at how callous and morally bankrupt he and some of his intellectually conservative supporters seem to be. When I see conservatives defend him, citing fiscal prudence and economic responsibility above all else, I just don't know what to say. Because one man wants to make a point, thousands of federal employees will have to go on unpaid furlough, millions won't be able to apply for unemployment benefits or COBRA coverage, and millions more won't receive the checks that they'll need to buy food while they're looking for work in a horrible economy.

Why would you do this? What possible benefit could you see in stopping the extension? That money get's spent by recipients on goods and services that are ALSO in economic trouble, it keeps money moving and helps to make our country a little more fluid in the process. A lot of people are going to suffer because this one man's ideology says that we have to make this imaginary number match another imaginary projection.

I don't get it. Rant over.

 

[lithy]

While Bunning's moves are mostly posturing, I'm sure he has voted yes on many bills throughout the year that cost 10 times as much, the one argument I don't like is as follows:

Suggesting that this bill is only a small amount, that the money has always been there for these benefits, etc. is a cop out. Why can't we get rid of unemployment benefits?

It becomes the same problem that is always the case with federal programs. You can't ever un-create government programs or departments. One of the big dangers with the stimulus money was that states were going to spend the (supposed to be) temporary money on new projects, employees, or departments and once the temporary money from the federal government quit flowing in, most doubt that the jobs are going to disappear as well, they'll get budgeted for somehow.

I'm rambling a little, I think Bunning is an idiot, but at some point I think there is a need to stop just voting a year extension on every program ever. We'll get ourselves in the same mess as Social Security, people begin to view it as a permanent expectation instead of temporary help.

 

[evil wasabi]

I heard a joke in the elevator yesterday about how Lindsey Vonn is going to be stripped of her gold medal

Because Obama went downhill faster than anyone else.

 

[BoriquaSNK]

I actually agree with you, I think a lot of the entitlement programs are a joke and a relic. I crack a smile whenever people say that they think they are paying into their own social security, you're not people, you're subsidizing the current flock of social security recipients.

I don't think that's necesarily a bad things either. If we could do something to change the expectations of people involving social security as one example I think we could make it a more honest and effective program.

But in the case of unemployment benefits, this is a program that is built as a temporary fix for people, particularly in a bad economy. I think it's an effective fix too, ensuring that money keeps moving and that essential goods and services stay afloat in bad economic times. It's a great example of an effective, relatively inexpensive economic stimulator. Sure there are people that abuse it, but in the grand scheme of things this is a relatively inexpensive extension that will reap much larger economic rewards...and it probably always will.

So what makes me especially angry is how powerful this one man, a man who's been forsaken by his party and by his state, can do something like this and still sleep at night. He clearly doesn't know anyone personally who isn't raking in loads of cash, and he clearly doesn't care about perfectly honest people who are still looking for work. Instead he wants to make this number match that number on the spreadsheet his 21 year old Ayn Rand-wannabe aide slapped together for him.

The larger issue is that I think this sort of thing is really pervasive, ideologically anyway, in a lot of conservative and libertarian circles. Liberals get consistently accused of elitism and being disconnected from the goings on of average people, but I've never met a libertarian who didn't go to college and have a reasonably privelaged upbringing. Every economic conservative I know has some familial safety net of some kind.

I don't know, like I said this stuff is just emotionally draining. I don't know who to be mad at anymore.

 

[aria]

Just don't let yourself get completely jaded and cynical. A balance of realism and idealism is healthy, and is usually why people come up with great ideas (be they politics, products, art, etc).

Still, I've always loved the saying that there are two things you don't want to see being made—sausage and legislation. Its older than the Republic. Or as Reagan said, "Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."

 

[BoriquaSNK]

I heard a joke in the elevator yesterday about how Lindsey Vonn is going to be stripped of her gold medal

Because Obama went downhill faster than anyone else.

Mitt Romney told that one at CPAC this year. Zing.

 

[GregN]

Where's Dinkins when we need him for these political threads?

 

[BoriquaSNK]

He's fooling the pope somewhere else on the interwebs it seems.

We've all got a little of Dinkins in us.

 

[Segata_Sanshiro]

I have a fierce belief in the second amendment, though I own no weapons

That shouldn't stop you from being a Democrat. gun control != banning guns

 

[SML]

Does this mean you're going to stop calling him Barry?

 

[BoriquaSNK]

Does this mean you're going to stop calling him Barry?

Nope.

Barry's my homie.

 

[Lovecraft0110]

I'm gonna rant for a little bit, and hope some decent discussion comes out of it. Pardon me.

I've been a member here for a while, probably seven years now, and for those that know me I've definitely been a vocal one, for better or for worse.

I've definitely calmed down over the past year or so, as I get older with more and more responsibility, as the opinions that I so viciously defended before got more and more complex over time. Politically speaking, I'm evolving. I'm not moving right or left, it's more complex than that, but I am moving.

For example, I no longer consider myself a Democrat, not that I ever really felt comfortable with the label anyway. I'm definitely still socially liberal, I still believe that competent government could happen and should be the ideal that we strive for. I don't think equality for gays and lesbians is a political issue, I think it's a moral and civil rights issue. I believe in universal healthcare, and I think a single payer, Medicare-esque system would be the best economically and morally.

But I have a fierce belief in the second amendment, though I own no weapons, and I truly believe that aging quasi-governmental bodies, like the post office and Amtrak, would do far better as private companies. I think pot should be legal and tobacco less-regulated.

I'm complex.

I think Pres. Obama is still doing an exceptional job given the circumstances, I think he deserves far more credit than he's received for bringing this country back from the brink of collapse by making some very ugly decisions. I've also, and I can't believe I'm saying this, think a lot of the same things about Bush...to a much lesser degree mind you.

So, I'm looking at this bullshit with Jim Bunning blocking unemployment benefits, and I'm truly astounded at how callous and morally bankrupt he and some of his intellectually conservative supporters seem to be. When I see conservatives defend him, citing fiscal prudence and economic responsibility above all else, I just don't know what to say. Because one man wants to make a point, thousands of federal employees will have to go on unpaid furlough, millions won't be able to apply for unemployment benefits or COBRA coverage, and millions more won't receive the checks that they'll need to buy food while they're looking for work in a horrible economy.

Why would you do this? What possible benefit could you see in stopping the extension? That money get's spent by recipients on goods and services that are ALSO in economic trouble, it keeps money moving and helps to make our country a little more fluid in the process. A lot of people are going to suffer because this one man's ideology says that we have to make this imaginary number match another imaginary projection.

I don't get it. Rant over.

Interesting post, which reminds me of a story a colleague and friend of mine told me the other day.

My friend (name's Larry) was at a staff party a few years ago where basically half of the people where Americans and the other half Europeans from various places. At some point one of the euros, a Norwegian, started to talk politics with some of the American guys, explaining his opinions on privatisation, taxes, unemployment, and so on...

Well, to the Norwegian's amazement, who considered himself a staunch conservative, the Americans (in particular two whom I know myself to be Texans of the "born again Christian" persuasion) seemed to think he was nothing more than a communist - and they made the bewildered Scandinavian well aware of this fact.

Long story short, it is actually quite funny that policies which for many of us Europeans would be considered commonplace (free, universal healthcare for one, which no one in his right mind would even consider challenging here) may be interpreted as "communist" on the other side of the Atlantic.

In any case, I am myself, like the Norwegian guy, right-wing - at least by our standards!

 

[abasuto]

Lets talk about energy policy.

 

[abasuto]

Well, to the Norwegian's amazement, who considered himself a staunch conservative, the Americans (in particular two whom I know myself to be Texans of the "born again Christian" persuasion) seemed to think he was nothing more than a communist - and they made the bewildered Scandinavian well aware of this fact.

In any case, I am myself, like the Norwegian guy, right-wing - at least by our standards!

To your average Republican voter in the US, the words "Socialist" and "Communist" simply means "you're not supporting the current agenda of the Republican Party"

I certainly didn't hear them screaming "Socialist" when Bush was bailing out private banks with tax money, or adding a prescription plan to medicaid or even mass funding a war with no plan to actually control the deficeit it was creating.

Of course let a Democrat do the exact same thing and suddenly they're attempting a Bolshevik Revolution.

Also great how the Republicans are now acting like reconciliation is some horrible process that only crazed extremist do. They themselves passed several bills through that process under Bush.

Most Americans are ill-informed and probably not the brightest stars, but the support for the Republican Party is still in the mid to low 20's nationwide.

There's a reason for that, but the Republicans have yet to realize why.

 

[norton9478]

Also great how the Republicans are now acting like reconciliation is some horrible process that only crazed extremist do. They themselves passed several bills through that process under Bush.

Foxnews has been calling reconciliation the "Nuclear Option"... which it isn't

 

[Nesagwa]

Foxnews has been calling reconciliation the "Nuclear Option"... which it isn't

Nucular. It's pronounced Nucular.

 

[SPINMASTER X]

Nucular. It's pronounced Nucular.

I approve of this

 

[Kazuki Dash]

Just don't let yourself get completely jaded and cynical. A balance of realism and idealism is healthy, and is usually why people come up with great ideas (be they politics, products, art, etc).

Bobak pretty much nailed it. The political system sucks royally, and keeping aware of all the goings-on can be extremely draining/frustrating. The key is to remember that as citizens we should work to avoid succumbing to disappointment because when you boil it all down, we as a whole are going to have to be the ones to pressure the system to change for our benefit.

It sucks, but if we throw in the towel as well then we'll be no different than the rest of those whiny pussies like Evan Bayh.

 

[abasuto]

Speaking of unemployment.

A few weeks back I went to my local department of labor just to see if I was able to qualify for anything from my former two jobs. I never collected on either of them.

I just got a call back about 3 minutes ago and the woman said a $3,764 check will be going out tomorrow as a backlot payment, then I'm cleared for $252 a week for a 11 week.

God bless America.

 

[SPINMASTER X]

Speaking of unemployment.

A few weeks back I went to my local department of labor just to see if I was able to qualify for anything from my former two jobs. I never collected on either of them.

I just got a call back about 3 minutes ago and the woman said a $3,764 check will be going out tomorrow as a backlot payment, then I'm cleared for $252 a week for a 11 week.

God bless America.

 

[galfordo]

I think Pres. Obama is still doing an exceptional job given the circumstances, I think he deserves far more credit than he's received for bringing this country back from the brink of collapse by making some very ugly decisions. I've also, and I can't believe I'm saying this, think a lot of the same things about Bush...

well that's not really all that hard to believe, considering they're basically mirror images of each other at this point

well, minus the failed healthcare nonsense



personally i think they both allowed wall st. to gang rape us, but that's just me

 

[Jon]

I actually agree with you, I think a lot of the entitlement programs are a joke and a relic. I crack a smile whenever people say that they think they are paying into their own social security, you're not people, you're subsidizing the current flock of social security recipients.

I don't think that's necesarily a bad things either. If we could do something to change the expectations of people involving social security as one example I think we could make it a more honest and effective program.

But in the case of unemployment benefits, this is a program that is built as a temporary fix for people, particularly in a bad economy. I think it's an effective fix too, ensuring that money keeps moving and that essential goods and services stay afloat in bad economic times. It's a great example of an effective, relatively inexpensive economic stimulator. Sure there are people that abuse it, but in the grand scheme of things this is a relatively inexpensive extension that will reap much larger economic rewards...and it probably always will.

So what makes me especially angry is how powerful this one man, a man who's been forsaken by his party and by his state, can do something like this and still sleep at night. He clearly doesn't know anyone personally who isn't raking in loads of cash, and he clearly doesn't care about perfectly honest people who are still looking for work. Instead he wants to make this number match that number on the spreadsheet his 21 year old Ayn Rand-wannabe aide slapped together for him.

The larger issue is that I think this sort of thing is really pervasive, ideologically anyway, in a lot of conservative and libertarian circles. Liberals get consistently accused of elitism and being disconnected from the goings on of average people, but I've never met a libertarian who didn't go to college and have a reasonably privelaged upbringing. Every economic conservative I know has some familial safety net of some kind.

I don't know, like I said this stuff is just emotionally draining. I don't know who to be mad at anymore.

Hey, I hate to question your modus operandi but, aren't you a federal employee? If so, you should probably excuse yourself from your own thread. It's one thing to have an opinion and another to be biased towards your employer.

Jon

 

[starscream615]

That money get's spent by recipients on goods and services that are ALSO in economic trouble, it keeps money moving and helps to make our country a little more fluid in the process. A lot of people are going to suffer because this one man's ideology says that we have to make this imaginary number match another imaginary projection.

Imagine if that money wasn't taken from the working and the businesses. Do you think that they wouldn't also spend it on goods and services that would still stimulate the economy, thus causing a need for more labor to produce said goods and services, thus causing those out of work folks to get a job. I think this extension of unemployment is just encouraging some folks, not all mind you, to just be a bit less diligent about finding another job. It amazes me how much communist and socialist ideology has crept into the US this day and age.

 

[BoriquaSNK]

Hey, I hate to question your modus operandi but, aren't you a federal employee? If so, you should probably excuse yourself from your own thread. It's one thing to have an opinion and another to be biased towards your employer.

Jon

?

I'm not a federal employee, and even if I was I'd be entitled to an opinion. There are plenty of political appointees and career fed workers who are pro/anti Obama.

@starscream615 - I don't buy that argument. Our regulated market economy is still the best in the world. Without a basic social safety net, those that fail will fail HARD, like homeless hard. How many homeless people do you see owning a small business without government help?

Remember that this crisis was caused by deregulated banks merging, and creating financial products with absolutely no accountability. It was a government that didn't believe in government that allowed this sort of thing to happen. In America, socialism is a bad word, but you benefit from social programs every single day. The Fire dept, libraries, public schools, traffic lights, highways, clean water, food and drug inspection...I've always found it really frustrating when people just ignore all the aspects of their life that they simply take for granted and still throw out the whole "omg there are socialists among us".

Also, there is literally NOTHING about our economy that is communist. Socialist, perhaps, communist, no. Read a little Marx/Engels and you'll see we have a long way to go before we become a commie state.

Political Theory Nerd Aside:

On a side note, for economics students this is a really interesting experiment that's going on right now. Before our very eyes, we've witnessed the collapse of supply side economics and Hayekianism has taken a serious blow as a result. We have a true (or at least very close to true), Keynesian government in place with policies that actually seem to be working. Historically speaking, It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next ten years or so.

 

[evil wasabi]

On the subject of federal employees, why the fuck are there so many?

The federal government needs to shave its staff in half.

Driving through this area sucks so badly. I'm sure that people who can afford to live in DC (NW of course) don't give two shits, but immediately outside of DC it gets terrible.

DC is basically the icon of government failure. Everything is in DC, when it should be all spread out for security reasons, infrastructure reasons, and quality of life. Instead, we pack a swamp to standing room only and allow overcongestion of the peripheries.

I'm pretty sure I can't blame Obama for this one. It has been a problem for a while. The government's answer to rising unemployment should not be to give more jobs in the government, but to take them away, and give them ZERO security. Because federal workers are generally not worth it at all.