LED minimarquee lighting - PROTOTYPE FORTHCOMING

[TheBakachan]

This is an idea I've been working on since long before I actually had a cabinet of my own. I'm at the point where I've got the design worked out and it's just a matter of putting together a prototype and testing it thoroughly. After that, the question is how many?

The goal is simple: Make a better Mini-Marquee backlight.

Considering what we have to start with, that doesn't seem very hard. From what I can tell, the EL panels are characterized by:

• Relatively poor lighting. (Even when it's working.)
• Usage of a high-voltage inverter to power it.
• Generation of inordinate amounts of heat for what it does.
• Eventual damage to Mini-Marquees from longterm exposure.
• Short usable lifetime.

Obviously, the fourth and fifth items on the list just won't do. It would take some trial and error to come up with an array setup and diffuser to create good even light from LEDs, but the benefits can't be ignored:

• Good, strong, consistant, color-neutral lighting.
• No high-voltage inverter needed. (Just around 3.3v @ 500mA for each panel.)
• Negligible heat generation.
• Should not damage Mini-Marquees in any way.
• Individual LEDs have an MTBF in the tens of thousands of hours and replacements can be purchased anywhere.

What I'm aiming for is a complete drop-in replacement for the MV-ELA and MV-ELB PCBs, and the entire piece of particle board backing up the marquee. So, if all goes according to plan, we're talking about two screws, a cable, and you're done.

My design will use the original 8-pin MV-MAIN to MV-ELA harness, using the original switching signals from the motherboard and +5v line off the power supply.

Besides starting this thread to document my progress, I also want to test the water; I want to know how many people here would be interested in such a solution. Because, with PCBs, if you're going to have one made, you might as well make as many as possible.

Anyway, I hope to have prototype pics up within a month or so, as I need to get all the parts together (And not spend money on other things, heh.) and test the circuit designs quite a bit. Shouldn't need too much testing though, as I'm using basically the same switching logic that's on the MV-ELA but using it to switch something completely different. Most of the testing will probably involve different LED array designs and diffusion materials.

So, let me know what you think in the meantime! I could use the encouragement.

 

[Jaelus]

Sounds like a great idea. I'd be down for one.

 

[Jason Lee]

Yeah, this is an exciting concept...and it certainly sounds feasible.

Count me in as interested, and thanks for the heads up!

 

[scgon]

certainly very interested

 

[BobbyPeru]

Sounds awesome! If this can be done for less than $150, I would be down.

What price point are you estimating?

 

[noCLip]

Sounds pretty sweet, id be interested, good luck!

 

[Biohazard53]

me too, my 4-slot lights have never worked since ive owned it.

 

[Zerrminator]

I'd be interested but only if I could switch from "single slot illumination" to "full slot illumination". I prefer to just light up all 4 marquees at the same time (I use the standard white MVS marquees in all 4 of my slots since I'm switching out different games all the time).

Kinda like this photo

 

[Gentle Ben]

Sign me right the fuck up.
My mouth is watering at the mere thought of it...

 

[tsuran]

I'd be in! Would it just be for 2 and 4 slotters, or would there be one for the two 6-slot boards?

 

[TheBakachan]

Cool, sounds like there's a bit of interest after all.

Sounds awesome! If this can be done for less than $150, I would be down.

What price point are you estimating?

Right now, the price is mostly dependent upon some (Temporarily) unknown variables; how much it costs to have the PCBs made, the cost of the non-electronic components, and the not-insignificant amount of labor involved in assembly, as the electronic component costs themselves are relatively low in comparison.

For that reason, it may not be as cheap as the (As I understand it, now defunct) prices quoted for replacement EL panels in Mitsurugi's EL panel thread, but it includes the PCBs, assembly, and everything.

To give you an idea of what we're talking about, a set for a 4-slot big red would include the following: 1x Driver board, 4x LED array panels, 4x LED panel power cables, 1x piece of particle board, 1x light diffusing panel, mounting hardware.

I would say that a reasonable expectation would be in the neighborhood of $150 to $250. I estimate that the LED panels themselves will probably work out to $30 a piece.

I'd be interested but only if I could switch from "single slot illumination" to "full slot illumination". I prefer to just light up all 4 marquees at the same time (I use the standard white MVS marquees in all 4 of my slots since I'm switching out different games all the time).

I don't think I can easily make that a feature of the standard driver board, but it shouldn't be hard to make an additional driver board that simply powers them all at once, for people who want that. The downside being that switching back and forth would involve swapping the 2-6 LED panel power cables, and the cable from the motherboard to the driver board.

I'd be in! Would it just be for 2 and 4 slotters, or would there be one for the two 6-slot boards?

The board I have designed fully replicates the switching logic on the original EL inverter board, so it's ready to drive up to 6 panels. The LED panels are identical boards that just take a 2-pin power cable from the driver board.

 

[Dion]

I am interested in this project as well. Using the original EL material is very expensive. Ed bought his material on rolls which are very expensive but in his business he used it for other purposes. It doesn't make sense for an individual to buy a roll. People thought that Ed's were expensive but they were actually quite cheap. We have looked a another source. He didn't have the rolls but he did have a panel a bit smaller than the stock ones that was affordable, but like I said, not perfect. They sell larger panels that could be cut down but the cost for a single A2 EL sheet is $210!!!!
If someone wants to keep the equipment 100% stock its still possible just insanely expensive.

So if you think about it even if it is a bit more expensive than the old EL kit prices its still a good deal because you would probably never have to replace them again. I would get one for my future machines.

 

[TheBakachan]

So if you think about it even if it is a bit more expensive than the old EL kit prices its still a good deal because you would probably never have to replace them again. I would get one for my future machines.

Exactly! Chances are, nearly everything else in the cabinet will die before any significant number of LEDs do. There's always the chance that a couple individual diodes will die prematurely, but they're easily replaced with just a soldering iron and a trip to eBay or RadioShack! (Also, the arrays are wired in parallel, so individual dead LEDs won't take out the whole panel.)

Speaking of the original EL panels, never having seen a 100% like-new working panel let alone a whole set, I was hoping someone might know what kind of timeframe the damage to the Mini-Marquees takes place over. Months? Years? A decade of continuous daily usage?

I'm sure at least some of the yellowing is environmental, but I've seen so many MMs with serious aging and heat damage like curling, or my favorite, the shrinking of dark-colored areas causing the whole thing to pucker...not to mention the MM images BURNED INTO the face of the EL panels...

Heck, I have a 2-slot marquee where the plastic strips that retain the MMs is BROWNED to the point that it looks like thirty year old masking tape.

Anyway...

Quick Status Update!

Ordered DIP versions of the chips so I can breadboard the driver board. I'm still on the fence as to whether to go with through-hole or surface mount components. They're about equal when it comes to soldering, so it will probably come down to price and availability. (Even though I already designed the board for SMT components, it'd only take a couple hours to re-do it.)

Also ordered a small quantity of the LEDs I hope to use. They're wide-angle, short, white, high-brightness (20,000mcd) 5mm LEDs. I have some similar, lower-powered 3mm ones, and they get a great spread. The extra brightness will help compensate for an aggressive diffuser. (Like a thin sheet of nearly-opaque white plexiglass)

 

[Zerrminator]

I would say that a reasonable expectation would be in the neighborhood of $150 to $250.

Count me in.

 

[SNKorSWM]

Damage to MMs can be minimized by inserting a piece of UV filter plastic inbetween the MM and EL, which can also insulate the MM from heat as well. But of course this is only a ghetto fix.

 

[TheBakachan]

Damage to MMs can be minimized by inserting a piece of UV filter plastic inbetween the MM and EL, which can also insulate the MM from heat as well. But of course this is only a ghetto fix.

Good to know! Now if only we could go back in time about twenty years and tell that to all the arcade operators... I've gotten far too many MMs that look like they've seen the inside of an EasyBake oven.

 

[mmsadda]

Sorry if I've missed it somewhere in here, and I dont' hope to derail the thread, but what about fluorescent lighting?

Personally, I have a converted American cabinet, as well as a Neo Candy 25, both of which use a fluorescent bulb to light up the minis.

Would these be hard on minis as much so as EL lighting?

 

[TheBakachan]

Sorry if I've missed it somewhere in here, and I dont' hope to derail the thread, but what about fluorescent lighting?

Personally, I have a converted American cabinet, as well as a Neo Candy 25, both of which use a fluorescent bulb to light up the minis.

Would these be hard on minis as much so as EL lighting?

Probably not, so long as you don't accidentally use a tube meant for plants or reptiles. (Both of which, I believe put out high levels of UVB and infrared light.)

 

[Bay78]

I want in on this project. I have a Neo Geo Big Red and my EL lighting mini's are all toast except for slot 4. It still has some juice. It lights up but not all the way. I'd be done to buy a kit to fix or replace as long as it still held the idea of only lighting up the game your playing.

 

[Electric Grave]

Without demeaning anyone and their efforts I simply can't be bother with these EL panels, I have opted for a single light like the ones you find in the MVU4, Mini Neo 19, Super Neo 29 and so on. The reason behind it is that I own several large marquees and this way I can switch between mini marquees or large marquees at will without any hassle at all.

One of my cabs does have a working set of EL panels and it looks great and all but somehow I'm still a bigger fan of having the entire marquee area lit, is just a matter of prefference and ease of use/replacement, I like keeping my hobby very practical but I admit it can be hard at times.

 

[TheBakachan]

(I enjoy the irony of being able to simultaneously reply to two posts holding almost diametrically opposed sentiments, btw.)

I want in on this project. I have a Neo Geo Big Red and my EL lighting mini's are all toast except for slot 4. It still has some juice. It lights up but not all the way. I'd be done to buy a kit to fix or replace as long as it still held the idea of only lighting up the game your playing.

Yep, that's the idea. The board I'm making uses the same switching signals from the motherboard. It should, in theory, operate EXACTLY the same. (Just, you know, without the off-color lighting, poor lifespan, and the whole minimarquee BBQ thing... )

Without demeaning anyone and their efforts I simply can't be bother with these EL panels, I have opted for a single light like the ones you find in the MVU4, Mini Neo 19, Super Neo 29 and so on. The reason behind it is that I own several large marquees and this way I can switch between mini marquees or large marquees at will without any hassle at all.

One of my cabs does have a working set of EL panels and it looks great and all but somehow I'm still a bigger fan of having the entire marquee area lit, is just a matter of prefference and ease of use/replacement, I like keeping my hobby very practical but I admit it can be hard at times.

Hey, no problem, I understand completely. A lot of how we maintain our cabs is personal preference, after all. It's not like we're arcade operators or something. So what do you use to light the whole thing? A standard fluorescent tube?

 

[Electric Grave]

Yes a simple cabinet light with a 15w fluorecent bulb, if installed correctly it can provide nice uniform light for the entire marquee without compromising the art in any way. I have also used glazed plexy behind the non-plexi or millar marquees to do two things, flatten the marquee and provide a nice sheen to the colors making sure the black stays black and all other colors come through vividly.

That's not to say I'm not curious of your progress, so consider me interested.

Good luck.

 

[TheBakachan]

That's not to say I'm not curious of your progress, so consider me interested.

Good luck.

Thanks. As for progress, I've got some. (I was already about to post this update when I saw new posts. )

Chips and stuff came in yesterday, started breadboarding the circuit, might have to switch from manufactured jumper wires to using cut lengths of hookup wire, because with all these jumpers it gets pretty messy and hard to debug.

"Somebody set up us the bomb"​

And debug I must, on my first try I got one of the indicators to light up, but it was a different one every time I applied power, and didn't change when I changed games. Which is good, in that it means the rest of the circuit is wired correctly and the signals are getting through the whole thing and switching an indicator on, but I think I must have lost the clock signal somewhere. (Or it could be because I had to fake the pull-up resistor network temporarily, as I don't have any RNs...) Also, given that the original hardware exhibits a similar behavior (Lighting a random panel when power is applied, until the next time the game changes, at which point the correct one lights.) I'm going to call it 50%.

LEDs came in today, so I can start trying out spacing and stuff for the panels. And I have samples of diffusing materials coming in next week. Once the circuit is successfully breadboarded and I doublecheck my board design, I can get a PCB house to put out a prototype. If all goes well, it will be ready for production.

 

[Gentle Ben]

Thanks. As for progress, I've got some. (I was already about to post this update when I saw new posts. )

Chips and stuff came in yesterday, started breadboarding the circuit, might have to switch from manufactured jumper wires to using cut lengths of hookup wire, because with all these jumpers it gets pretty messy and hard to debug.

And debug I must, on my first try I got one of the indicators to light up, but it was a different one every time I applied power, and didn't change when I changed games. Which is good, in that it means the rest of the circuit is wired correctly and the signals are getting through the whole thing and switching an indicator on, but I think I must have lost the clock signal somewhere. (Or it could be because I had to fake the pull-up resistor network temporarily, as I don't have any RNs...) Also, given that the original hardware exhibits a similar behavior (Lighting a random panel when power is applied, until the next time the game changes, at which point the correct one lights.) I'm going to call it 50%.

LEDs came in today, so I can start trying out spacing and stuff for the panels. And I have samples of diffusing materials coming in next week. Once the circuit is successfully breadboarded and I doublecheck my board design, I can get a PCB house to put out a prototype. If all goes well, it will be ready for production.

Wow man, you rock. Definitely excited about this now...

 

[Deuce]

I don't have a Big Red, so I have no personal use for it, but I love projects like this. Keep up the good work.