9 Dead at Umpqua Community College, Oregon
- Thread starter TonK
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 26,980
That's just the wind whistling through your skull.
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2005
- Posts
- 12,919
You know...I'm still not sure why I even got into yet another argument over firearms. I stepped out of this one and did my best to stay away from it all over the web.
I'm opinionated, I'm fervent, I like to debate. This kind of issue always sucks me in and I really have no idea why I let myself get into it. The fact is this. People that believe firearms are the issue are not going to change their mind, people that believe firearms aren't the issue are not going to change their mind. Arguing about it won't make any difference. The web is scattered with an ocean of tiled, one sided "facts", and charts, and studies swearing side A or side B is correct. No matter what anyone provides as the discussion ending nail in the coffin just produces some other piece of data claiming the exact opposite.
In the end...I need to stop being a chump and need to stop engaging on these discussions. This time around I did far better than I have in the past. I got sucked in for a min or two...but dropped it pretty quick.
I'm opinionated, I'm fervent, I like to debate. This kind of issue always sucks me in and I really have no idea why I let myself get into it. The fact is this. People that believe firearms are the issue are not going to change their mind, people that believe firearms aren't the issue are not going to change their mind. Arguing about it won't make any difference. The web is scattered with an ocean of tiled, one sided "facts", and charts, and studies swearing side A or side B is correct. No matter what anyone provides as the discussion ending nail in the coffin just produces some other piece of data claiming the exact opposite.
In the end...I need to stop being a chump and need to stop engaging on these discussions. This time around I did far better than I have in the past. I got sucked in for a min or two...but dropped it pretty quick.
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2012
- Posts
- 10,184
You have to be careful though - in an argument that can't be resolved the loser is usually the side that simply can't be arsed arguing anymore.
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2005
- Posts
- 12,919
In the end...there are no winners or losers, I think this is the reason why I've given up and need to stick to that viewpoint.
If someone is fervent about it (or any other issue), nothing is going to change no matter what anyone says. This is no different than the abortion issue, which I completely refuse to discuss with anyone for that same reason. You're either for it, or against it and little is going to change that.
I'll say this because my stance is already known here...no matter what I say about our right to own firearms, no matter what stance i take, it has never convinced a single person that I am right. No matter what a person says to me when they come out strongly in favor of banning firearms, it has never convinced me that they are right. in the end, I get all pissed off, spend a shit-ton of time online arguing about it and nothing lands up happening.
This argument has no winners, or losers and it never will.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 26,980
I honestly cannot understand how anyone can be a member here for any amount of time, talk to some of the incredible douchebags present, and still not be a huge proponent for abortion. And euthanasia.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 26,980
Oh, it has losers.
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2012
- Posts
- 10,184
Here's something you might find heartening then - I came to this site with a very typical European anti-gun mind set. I can't say I've decided that guns are a good thing, or are necessary, but I will say that I understand why they haven't been banned in the US (which is initially mind boggling to someone who comes from a gun free country) and the further implications that a ban on guns in the US would have on the rights of the US people. That's directly from reading posts from people such as yourself on here. It's not exactly a victory but I've been turned from a decided into a floating voter - so it's halfway there.
Unfortunately for you I don't get a vote anyway
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2005
- Posts
- 12,919
LOL..yeah, I can see that. Being a person who believes in freedom of choice, I'm for it because...well..."pro choice" doesn't mean "pro abortion", it means exactly what it says, pro-choice.
Here's something you might find heartening then - I came to this site with a very typical European anti-gun mind set. I can't say I've decided that guns are a good thing, or are necessary, but I will say that I understand why they haven't been banned in the US (which is initially mind boggling to someone who comes from a gun free country) and the further implications that a ban on guns in the US would have on the rights of the US people. That's directly from reading posts from people such as yourself on here. It's not exactly a victory but I've been turned from a decided into a floating voter - so it's halfway there.
Unfortunately for you I don't get a vote anyway
Well...I guess that's a positive.
The problem is this...guns are a tool for killing people/animals, I will never deny that. Because of this belief, it's a hard argument to have.
Paper punching is not good enough reason to own the firearms I have, so I have to defend it somehow to someone who wants to dispute my right to own them. When some nut-fuck like that guy last week goes on a rampage, it makes it even tougher.
people will ask "do you hunt?"
"no."
"Do you sport shoot?"
"not much anymore"
"Then why do you have them?"
"riot insurance/SHTF insurance"
"oh...so you're a crazy fuck."
I get this all of the time. I'll admit that I have no illusions of grandeur, I will never attempt to take on the government in any form and that I won what I own should shit ever hit the fan and I am left to defend myself or hunt for food. Like the auto, health, life, home insurance I carry and pay out the ass for every day, my firearms are riot insurance. Lie the other insurances I listed, none are fool proof/guaranteed, but all are better than none. You're not considered paranoid for anything I listed save firearms. I'm called a nut often, if you knew me in the real world, I'm pretty sure you'd find that I'm quite reasonable and well grounded. I hope I never have to shoot a person...ever. I also hope my home never burns to the ground, I also hope I don't die at 40, I also hope I won't get cancer. "Hope" doesn't stop shit from happening, sadly.
But back on the subject...guns in the hands of the wrong people. Item-ban laws only take things from the hands of the right people, this is proven. Ban something, anything and law abiding citizens will follow the law. The criminal element will not and if a large scale black market did not exist before the ban, it will definitely exist after the ban. The prohibition is is a prime example of that. Before, little crime. Ban booze, massive crime. Un-ban it, crime goes away. if you ban guns 100%, it will lower certain numbers...but not the criminal element of it all. I'm guessing it would darn near end mass shootings, but mass shooting don't even make up a small portion of firearm deaths in the US each year. Like I said before, 60% of them are suicide, which will happen no matter what. Guns are just currently the path of least resistance. The other 40% are the criminal element. Like drugs, gambling, sex, whatever, this criminal element will simply go to the next available outlet for guns.
In the end:
-Mass shootings would almost completely stop
-Gun related suicides would stop nearly 100%, but the deaths would not drop
-The criminal element will not change a bit, these people already have illegal firearms.
So ban the rights of hundreds of millions of people, spend hundreds of millions, if not well over a billion dollars to round up over 310,000,000 firearms...all to save less than 100 people per year. Meanwhile, just like everything else on the black market, it will be business as usual for criminals.It's proven, criminals already cannot buy firearms...what they get, they already get illegally.
I've long said that I would give up my right to have firearms if it mean there would be no firearms...but this is a la-la-land dream. There is just no way this could ever happen.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2013
- Posts
- 3,159
Here's a question I've always wanted answered. I live in Europe, and as such gun laws are strict. If I get into a fight/argument/piss someone off, chances are they will not pull a gun on me. How far do you in America, limit how you act just in case someone does have a gun? Like, if you got into a little altercation with someone while you're behind the wheel, do you just let it go because "shit, you never know, he might have a gun"?
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2011
- Posts
- 10,587
usually there is no limit to how americans act 'just in case of gun'.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2003
- Posts
- 9,740
Yup. Especially when I lived in California, and always when I have young children in the car.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2010
- Posts
- 4,485
As an adult, i find it ridiculous to get into any kind of fist fight. These are the guys that are still high school kids w/ anger issues. I try not to escalate shit if it can be prevented. Even if they are in the wrong & its not because im afraid he has a gun or weapon, just no need for it.
Let it be or just walk away, only defend yourself when you're being attacked.
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2005
- Posts
- 12,919
America is a culture of "the gun"...and in my personal opinion, always will be. So, am I worried about a personal that is legally carrying a firearm? No, not at all. The statistics on this is freaking small, the amount of legal concealed carriers that use their weapon in an illegal manner is extremely small...and I mean small. I'd look it up, but I'm running short on time. Criminals? Hard telling. In my 38 years on this planet, I've never had a gun drawn on me nor have I even seen a shooting or shootout. The closest I've come is hearing gun shoots ring outside the school I teach at (it is in a shitty neighborhood). I've only heard that twice.
Again...I'd need to look this up, but the vast majoirty of gun deaths are not only criminals killing criminals, but even of a certain age group.
Here's an interesting piece of data from the CDC:
Look closely at the "homicide firearm" and "Suicide firearm" areas. It goes from a very small # in the 1-14 age group then skyrockets at the 15-24, takes a second place to vehicles in the 24-34 age group (but maintain the 3K/yr total), then begins to sharply fall off after that. What's crazy is t the groups from 35-65+, suicide firearm begins to pick up steam and continue upward. What blows my mind is that more 65+ year old people kills themselves than firearm homicides in the 15-34 groups combined.
This is the data I'm talking about when it comes to my "it wouldn't change much" approach. This is data from 2013 from the CDC, which is not a pro or anti aligned group. This shows that a large amount of firearm deaths are suicide. (21K -vs- 11K).
I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that suicide numbers wouldn't change much. Maybe a hair, but people would just find the next best thing to off themselves with. The 11K killed in firearm homicide? Hard telling. Like I said, there's other info out there but it is often stated by the FBI that a vast majority of firearms used in crime are obtained illegally. Of these mass shootings (which, are actually pretty rare depending on your definition), nearly all are with legally owned firearms.
This was my "not big impact" point. Huge effort to ban guns, small effect on crime deaths, small effect on suicides, huge effect on mass shootings. But...mass shootings are extremely rare per capita. I've long been of the thought that suppressing the rights of the vast majority to aid a very small amount of people is not a good idea. If we banned everything that was responsible for 100+ innocent deaths a year (and that's a stretch with mass shooting #'s BTW)...damn near everything would be banned.
I am extremely non confrontational in real life. Like you said, there is no reason to get in a fight with someone. Only twice have I even had to come close to a real fight (as an adult), one time a homeless man jumped a student of mine outside school, another time a young man was beating the shit out of his young girlfriend at a gas station. Both times I felt it was appropriate to get involved.
Last edited:
DNSDies
I LOVE HILLARY CLINTON!
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2015
- Posts
- 1,983
I'll never understand people who off themselves with guns when exit bags are a painless and easy way to go with no real way to fuck it up, provided you can get at least 5 minutes alone.
I guess because a gun suicide is more impulsive and easier than going though the trouble of buying helium, a mask, and a flow control valve and learning how to not fuck it up.
I guess because a gun suicide is more impulsive and easier than going though the trouble of buying helium, a mask, and a flow control valve and learning how to not fuck it up.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2010
- Posts
- 4,485
You need to show us a demonstration on how painless it is, make sure to record it while doing it to the very end. I want to see how easy it is.
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Posts
- 4,963
Nah, mak'n fun of adults who believe in that shit will always be fun.
Making fun of shitty actors who make shittier leaps in logic is a close second.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2005
- Posts
- 23,275
Castor Troy
The Esfinter that theMot Chupame's
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Posts
- 3,187
I'd like to know DNS and Smoke's plans on lowering these mass shooting incidents (without arming more people).
Awaits their responses.
Awaits their responses.
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2003
- Posts
- 34,074
[
Graph 1: Limit it to OECD countries.
Graph 2/3:
You shouldn't include Puerto Rico.
Take that "State" out.
And while you are at it, take out DC too.+
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2004
- Posts
- 44,898
honestly I am amazed that abortion, which was decided over 40 years ago in Roe V. Wade, is still debated. clearly just a tool to get the votes from the smallfolk.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2000
- Posts
- 60,434
You're one of the douchebags he's talking about, moron.
DNSDies
I LOVE HILLARY CLINTON!
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2015
- Posts
- 1,983
First off, stop blaring these shooting all over the news every time it happens.
Fuck, this shooter idolized other mass shooters.
Stop spending so much time giving attention to them, and you'll see fewer of them.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303309504579181702252120052
This isn't me talking either, it's scores of criminal psychologists who repeat this every time the news cycle goes insane over these events.
It's profiteering on tragedy, and it glamorizes the killer.
I mean, I bet you can name at least 5 spree killers without looking them up. Can you name even 5 victims? I know I can't. MSM is all too ready to cover the killer, but not show the damage done to real people.
Fuck, this shooter idolized other mass shooters.
Stop spending so much time giving attention to them, and you'll see fewer of them.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303309504579181702252120052
This isn't me talking either, it's scores of criminal psychologists who repeat this every time the news cycle goes insane over these events.
It's profiteering on tragedy, and it glamorizes the killer.
I mean, I bet you can name at least 5 spree killers without looking them up. Can you name even 5 victims? I know I can't. MSM is all too ready to cover the killer, but not show the damage done to real people.
Castor Troy
The Esfinter that theMot Chupame's
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Posts
- 3,187
So your solution is to just "Deal with it and ignore the problem"?
You know, I was trying to reach out and see if you can come up with a some sort of logical solution. But you seem to be WAY out of your mind like that youtube guy I posted before.
You should seriously take a few steps back and seriously TRY and look at the big picture.
If the mods here decided to ban you or lock you in the War Room, I wouldn't be surprised.