is a conversion a bootleg??

[DEXTERPAWN]

i was lookin at some conversions on escam and remember all the stuff that has been said about bootlegs. how do i find out what is going on with the cart? is it the same poor quality as a bootleg?

 

[ResO]

Conversions are sometimes made with counterfeit parts, and are sometimes made with authentic parts.......


The bottom line is that it is not an authentic product, any way you look at it.

 

[metallizer]

True conversions uses 100% snk parts.

If it uses counterfeit parts, it is considered a boot.

 

[ResO]

True conversions uses 100% snk parts.

If it uses counterfeit parts, it is considered a boot.

You might as well buy a phantom-1 and a legit MVS cart. In the long run you save money, and you are garunteed to have an official SNK product. Well, if you don't buy bootleg MVS carts, that is.

 

[slerch666]

For sake of argument, let's pretend all conversions are made from 100% SNK parts (pretend, pretend!). If the conversion is sold as a conversion, it's not technically a boot.

If someone sells a conversion and says it's an original product (see the NGF threads littering the Forums), then it is a bootleg. Example:

EX1)I have MS1 MVS. I sack a real SNK cart and turn it into an AES cart. I sell it as a conversion and slap it in an AES snaplock, no insert. I don't get $2000+ for it, I only get say, $300 for my work. Technically not a bootleg, as you knew what you were buying.

EX2) I have MS1 MVS. I sack a real SNK cart and turn it into an AES cart. I then create a duplicate of the MS1 insert and put my conversion into an AES cart case. I sell it to you as an authentic AES product and get $2000 for it. THAT would be a bootleg and an asshole seller.

(I don't do conversions, only making an example)

And as far as NGF, they claim their conversions are legit, while many others claim otherwise. I make no comment either way, but was only using their conversions, since they are so well known, as a good example.

 

[neo-geo 2]

For sake of argument, let's pretend all conversions are made from 100% SNK parts (pretend, pretend!). If the conversion is sold as a conversion, it's not technically a boot.

If someone sells a conversion and says it's an original product (see the NGF threads littering the Forums), then it is a bootleg.

And as far as NGF, they claim their conversions are legit, while many others claim otherwise. I make no comment either way, but was only using their conversions, since they are so well known, as a good example.

No, Techinally a conversion is a boot.

Taken from the Neo Glossary:

Bootleg

Something that has been made without the permission of the original copyright owner.

SNK did not authorize conversions, therefore its a boot, they are no different then the SVC MVS cart

 

[Average Joe]

Trust neo-geo 2 on this... bootlegs are his specialty.

 

[slerch666]

No, Techinally a conversion is a boot.

Taken from the Neo Glossary:

Bootleg

Something that has been made without the permission of the original copyright owner.

SNK did not authorize conversions, therefore its a boot, they are no different then the SVC MVS cart

I guess it all comes down to personal interpretation. I guess technically it's OK to sell a bootleg as long as both buyers know it's a boot and sell it as such.

As far as I am concerned, if it's made from authentic SNK parts and both parties know what it is, it's not a bootleg, but that's just my opinion, nothing more. I'm not an IP holder and I don't make games or anything for a living. Though if you make your own conversion and keep it, I don't think THAT would be considered a bootleg. You are allowed, under fair use laws, to do basically anything you want with your own property.

So I guess my argument was incorrect.

 

[Tiptonium]

"Taken from the Neo Glossary:

Bootleg

Something that has been made without the permission of the original copyright owner. "

Personally, I disagree with this definition as it is not really a denfinition but rather someones opinion on the subject, someone with a definite bias IMO.

Nothing was "made" when doing a 100% original parts conversion. Original parts were moved from one Original PCB to another Original PCB. The code was not copied or otherwise modified. All parts are OEM. OEM received full payment for all parts involved. Definitely not a bootleg. 100% Original conversions can easily be "de-converted." Bootlegs cannot be "de-converted."

 

[metallizer]

No, Techinally a conversion is a boot.

Taken from the Neo Glossary:

Bootleg

Something that has been made without the permission of the original copyright owner.

SNK did not authorize conversions, therefore its a boot, they are no different then the SVC MVS cart

Well just because you modified your PS2 system to play japanese games or add a svid output in your NGH system, these modifications don´t make your system a boot.

Of course conversions will never have snk original printed art.

 

[c.t.h]

I would say a conversion should be viewed as a bootleg, as it is being played on a system it was not intended to be played on.

SNKP must think the same, as they put the pressure on shawn to end talks of conversions.

 

[metallizer]

I would say a conversion should be viewed as a bootleg, as it is being played on a system it was not intended to be played on.

SNKP must think the same, as they put the pressure on shawn to end talks of conversions.

If it was not intended to be played on why the mvs rom chips have the NGH program on it?

What snkp thinks about it we will never know for sure, could be because the fan made art since snkp also axed the t-shirt contest, could be they were afraid of games being converted even before they had a chance to release the official version...

EDIT: Don´t forget snk did conversions.

 

[c.t.h]

listen, it's not SNk authorized, so it isn't original. it doesn't matter whether you use original parts or not - that's like saying you build a new car out of parts off a ferrari, that doesn't make it a ferrari. it's not original.

 

[Tarma]

"Taken from the Neo Glossary:

Bootleg

Something that has been made without the permission of the original copyright owner. "

Personally, I disagree with this definition as it is not really a denfinition but rather someones opinion on the subject, someone with a definite bias IMO.

Nothing was "made" when doing a 100% original parts conversion. Original parts were moved from one Original PCB to another Original PCB. The code was not copied or otherwise modified. All parts are OEM. OEM received full payment for all parts involved. Definitely not a bootleg. 100% Original conversions can easily be "de-converted." Bootlegs cannot be "de-converted."

Yeah, I'd agree with that although there is still a grey fog around it all.

An AES conversion using original parts, for me, is like an unofficial hybrid (mvs/AES), of course the irony is there is little difference. The rom chips used on the mvs pcb's are EXACTLY the same as those used in the offical AES release.
The bigger problem lies with the art work, because legally people who do conversions don't have the rights to reproduce the material in any way (i.e modified from it's original format or a straight forward copy).

If you reproduce the art work you could act unconscionably and try to palm the work off as original (see the Metal Slug example above).

Those who copy the code on to eproms or transfer original roms to non official pcbs are creating boots (see the work of our resident glutton neo-geo 2). These are far worse imo than a straight forward swap of parts as Tip defines.

Personally I see nothing wrong in those wanting to make conversions using official parts, and 'unofficial' art work, especially of unreleased AES games (e.g MPE or Breakers Revenge). For those wanting to save bucks by buying, or making, Metal Slug, Ninja Masters etc. I would suggest modifying the original art work in some subtle way so it cannot be mistaken for an original SNK item - i.e. put your url on the rear of the insert

 

[metallizer]

listen, it's not SNk authorized, so it isn't original. it doesn't matter whether you use original parts or not - that's like saying you build a new car out of parts off a ferrari, that doesn't make it a ferrari. it's not original.

Using cars as an argument exemple wasn´t a smart choise.

Porsche replicas are build and sold everyday, have a look:

http://www.chamonixcars.com.br/

The company above makes the best replica of Spyder 550 in the world.

The price isn´t the same of an original spyder but if you can´t have this is the closest to own one.

Of course Porsche is fully aware of this and they are quite pleasant that their cars are so great ppl are still interested in their old models.

 

[norton9478]

Legaly,

conversions should be legal. Especialy now that the new LOC clause that allows for more methods for legal/good faith use.

Think of it this way, If I take a 327/350 out of a 65' corvette and switch it with a 2.2L v6 in a 93' S-10 I can sell them both legaly....

The only way that conversions would be illegal is if there were some sort of encryption or protection against it. Even that might not hold watter under the new LOC rules.

Phantoms and most likely, costom bioses are actually treading on much thinner legal watter.

Also it would be legal to put authentic chips on non authentic boards (assuming that it is sold as such). Boards are not copyriten in the same way.

 

[dbarrett0928]

My opinion

In My opinion if a conversion is made using 100% snk parts than its not a boot...if other parts are used than yes its a bootleg, which is illegal, all of you have good points...

 

[DEXTERPAWN]

this is a good subject. i want to hear more.

 

[supergoose]

True conversions uses 100% snk parts.
If it uses counterfeit parts, it is considered a boot.

what about the unauthorized usage of copyrighted artwork?

 

[ResO]

Using cars as an argument exemple wasn´t a smart choise.

Porsche replicas are build and sold everyday

Using the word "replica" wasn't the right choice either

Unauthorized
Bootleg
Counterfeit
Replica
Unofficial
Illegitimate
Unwarranted
Black-market
Not sanctioned
Pirated


Hmm, all those words above describe Neo conversions......Boy do I want to slam $250 on one of those!

Seriously, why waste your money on that when you can buy an official cart and a converter, you know, to play your official cart.


Edit: Forgot to add "unlicensed" to the list above! Seriously, The word official sure does have a nice ring to it.

 

[Tiptonium]

what about the unauthorized usage of copyrighted artwork?

Unauthorized uses of copyrighted artwork is usually tied to a loss of profitability by the owner or financial gain from the user.

It is wrong to sell or financially profit from such media. This does not a conversion make. A conversion requires no such art. Just like a 100% original non-converted game. The art is optional. Which brings me to this question.

Is it wrong for a private individual to make a scan of an original game insert, print it, and use it it replace a damaged insert if that person has a 100% original insert that has water damage, an unsighly stain or other defect. This person was not going to sell it as original but just wanted to fix a damaged insert found in his/or personal collection. I've never had to do this myself but it is a situation that has occured to one or more folks in the past.

 

[supergoose]

Tip, don't get me wrong.
i made some shock box inserts myself and asked J to give me a photocopied insert along with his badly sunfaded sw2 home cart.

but there are also a shitload of economy cons out there, which are often - not to say 'always' - sold with unauthorised artwork. i mean ... who would drool over or buy a con that doesn't come with a nice and authentic looking insert?
we could as well be picky and talk about the solder tin ...

fact is ... there's no such thing like a 100% snk made conversion.

 

[metallizer]

Using the word "replica" wasn't the right choice either

Unauthorized
Bootleg
Counterfeit
Replica
Unofficial
Illegitimate
Unwarranted
Black-market
Not sanctioned
Pirated


Hmm, all those words above describe Neo conversions......Boy do I want to slam $250 on one of those!

Seriously, why waste your money on that when you can buy an official cart and a converter, you know, to play your official cart.


Edit: Forgot to add "unlicensed" to the list above! Seriously, The word official sure does have a nice ring to it.

I didn´t decide to use the word "replica" I´m just using the term that market calls it:

http://www.chuckbeckmotorsports.com/

Not all the terms that you used to describe conversions actually are correct.

About the money part well, if you want to have unreleased NGH games like Breaker Revenge or Puzzle Bobble as NGH carts I can´t see another way. Even games like MS1 or Kizuna Encounter euro are reasonable choises to do conversions considering the high prices of those games, some ppl aren´t ready to blow $$$$$ on vgs.


Here are some words I can say about the convertor you mentioned:

Unauthorized
Unofficial
Black-market
Not sanctioned
Unlicensed
Unreliable

Every convertor made killed a MVS cart unlike conversion that´s possible do de-convert a game.

Not to mention that you can´t garantee to me that the convertor will work with my system or the games that I will buy.

 

[metallizer]

Tip, don't get me wrong.
i made some shock box inserts myself and asked J to give me a photocopied insert along with his badly sunfaded sw2 home cart.

but there are also a shitload of economy cons out there, which are often - not to say 'always' - sold with unauthorised artwork. i mean ... who would drool over or buy a con that doesn't come with a nice and authentic looking insert?
we could as well be picky and talk about the solder tin ...

fact is ... there's no such thing like a 100% snk made conversion.

Yes there are 100% made conversions as I mentioned snk did conversions.

About the solder part if its really necessary the snk solder can be reproduced but I don´t know the reason to do that cos´ it wont change the aesthetic look of the cart.

No one can picky about unauthorised artwork, we all use avatars here and that´s unauthorised use of artwork. You are right when you say we can´t sell the artwork but it is always incluided for free or only charged the printing process.

 

[Bishamon]

listen, it's not SNk authorized, so it isn't original. it doesn't matter whether you use original parts or not - that's like saying you build a new car out of parts off a ferrari, that doesn't make it a ferrari. it's not original.

Exactly!