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I had the super soaker of this. It was bright green and made me feel like the most bad ass 10 yr old.It can be dangerous to be black and a legal gun owner in America. Here, take this!
It can be dangerous to be black and a legal gun owner in America
- Thread starter LoneSage
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Got a chance to watch this video today.
It is difficult to impossible to convey to a cop that you intend to stop somewhere 'safer'. Once they arrived at the BP, they already considered it a 'felony traffic stop' for failing to pull over quickly. You can see they exit their cars with guns already drawn. I understood from news stories that he stopped about a mile after he got lit up, I can't find any video of that amoutn of time prior to the start of the sequence at the gas station. Depending on what kind of roads he was on, that's a couple minutes at least. Longer time in the car can make cops think plenty of things might happen.
I honestly got tired of listening to the cops telling him to get out of the car. Why is complying so difficult? Dude was calm the entire time, so it wasn't a panic situation, he just didn't do what they wanted him to do and he got maced after not following commands.
This story doesn't seem like much to me honestly.
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A fairly large issue for me is that they drew their guns - for the average person pointing a gun at another person is a use of deadly force. It’s akin to actually shooting someone. If you pull a gun on someone and don’t use it that often means you weren’t justified in drawing it in the first place. People go to prison for firing “warning” shots, because, again, if you have the presence of mind to “warn” someone then you didn’t need to draw the gun and commit to using deadly force.
Why can the police just assume a use of deadly force with no evidence? A felony traffic stop for a failure to pull over does not give carte blanche to use deadly force.
Police departments use of force rules are too far removed from the rules for the rest of us. The police need leeway with their powers to protect the community but drawing a gun (using deadly force) against an individual with no evidence is bonkers.
Were the officers in fear of their lives? By drawing their arms did they protect the lives of others in the vicinity? I dont think so.
And ultimately they deescalated their actions. But you don’t get to start with deadly force and work your way down.
Officers, if they continue these actions, are going to get killed. Unless there is reform there is going to be an absolutely sobering reckoning with cops who overreached, got killed, and the guy(s) who killed them will be acquitted.
And worst of all for the police the public absolutely won’t be on their side.
Why can the police just assume a use of deadly force with no evidence? A felony traffic stop for a failure to pull over does not give carte blanche to use deadly force.
Police departments use of force rules are too far removed from the rules for the rest of us. The police need leeway with their powers to protect the community but drawing a gun (using deadly force) against an individual with no evidence is bonkers.
Were the officers in fear of their lives? By drawing their arms did they protect the lives of others in the vicinity? I dont think so.
And ultimately they deescalated their actions. But you don’t get to start with deadly force and work your way down.
Officers, if they continue these actions, are going to get killed. Unless there is reform there is going to be an absolutely sobering reckoning with cops who overreached, got killed, and the guy(s) who killed them will be acquitted.
And worst of all for the police the public absolutely won’t be on their side.
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Cops should know why he pulled into a well lit gas station. They even admitted on camera to understanding the logic of it. Cops should use thier freakin' brains.
Isn't like they had anything better to do anyways.
The cops should be glad that you are pulling into a safe place. More cops are killed by passing motorists than shot in the line of duty (OK I'm just speculating here... go look it up if you want).
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STICK YOUR WINDOWS OUT THE WINDOW
OPEN YOUR DOOR.
See cops give conflicting and nearly impossible commands.
-Sometimes you comply and they shoot you.
Better to be still than to do what you are told.
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Bootlickers gonna lick boots, I guess. If you think that not complying with conflicting sets of orders is a good enough reason for the police to murder you, well... I don't know what to tell you, other than you're an absolute fucking clown.
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lol back to the bootlicker well. You were one of the graffiti defender crew right?
Which orders do you think were conflicting? Norton gave two examples. I will have to go back to the video to find when those statements were made because it was pretty apparent to me what they wanted him to do and he just did not do it. A couple misspoken statements are not going to make me feel like he didn't comply because he didn't understand them. Of course, it does create problems, but police are human and mistakes should be expected when we make policy decisions on how to police to a community.
He is even of sound enough mind after getting maced to calmly tell them he is going to use right hand to unbuckle when he finally decided to do what they want. Before that he just kept asking what is going on over and over which in my opinion only further escalated the situation.
To Lagduf's point about whether officers should begin the interaction with weapons out and then de-escalate from there, I think that's a fair point although I believe most use of force policies would currently allow what we saw. If that's a change you want, that's fair, I agree that pulling a weapon is likely to create changes to how people will react to police.
I am curious about policy for deploying the mace. If anyone knows typical use for that, it isn't something I've seen often from non-crowd control police.
Which orders do you think were conflicting? Norton gave two examples. I will have to go back to the video to find when those statements were made because it was pretty apparent to me what they wanted him to do and he just did not do it. A couple misspoken statements are not going to make me feel like he didn't comply because he didn't understand them. Of course, it does create problems, but police are human and mistakes should be expected when we make policy decisions on how to police to a community.
He is even of sound enough mind after getting maced to calmly tell them he is going to use right hand to unbuckle when he finally decided to do what they want. Before that he just kept asking what is going on over and over which in my opinion only further escalated the situation.
To Lagduf's point about whether officers should begin the interaction with weapons out and then de-escalate from there, I think that's a fair point although I believe most use of force policies would currently allow what we saw. If that's a change you want, that's fair, I agree that pulling a weapon is likely to create changes to how people will react to police.
I am curious about policy for deploying the mace. If anyone knows typical use for that, it isn't something I've seen often from non-crowd control police.
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Generally agree, although he could have gotten out of the car or at least been way more clear that he understood their commands and wanted to comply while remaining calm to ensure his safety.
I would really like to see the dashcam from lights on to the gas station. He claims he had his hazards on, but they were not on at the gas station. Cop claimed it was a mile and a half on city streets which is quite a ways.
As for your last point, I don't think it's true. Not saying cops are getting gunned down left and right but getting hit by car is also pretty rare.
Police fatalities: One in 10 deaths happen when vehicles strike officers
Compared to other risks of the job, vehicle strikes are rare. But the serious injuries to a Colerain Township officer show the consequences are severe.
www.cincinnati.com
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I believe he was actually engaging in civil disobedience. He absolutely resisted, however, would he have resisted their orders if the police hadn’t began the encounter by using deadly force?
What if he had pulled over, the officers approached and simply asked what took him so long to pull over? He could have taken his ticket and left. They could have given him a warning about pulling over sooner.
Instead armed agents of the state used deadly force and ordered him out of his car for a...traffic violation? Not even a moving a moving violation.
They used deadly force and chemical agents against him because of a taxation issue? WTF.
Again the disparity between civilian law and use of force and what the police can do needs to be addressed.
RE: Conflicting commands - doesn’t matter in this case. Listen to the officer who is basically saying he needs to comply or they’re going to whoop his ass. He was out to engage in violence. None of the interaction had to do with safety. The officers, the public, or the Lt.
The disparity between how calm the Lt. was and how the police acted is pretty telling.
What if he had pulled over, the officers approached and simply asked what took him so long to pull over? He could have taken his ticket and left. They could have given him a warning about pulling over sooner.
Instead armed agents of the state used deadly force and ordered him out of his car for a...traffic violation? Not even a moving a moving violation.
They used deadly force and chemical agents against him because of a taxation issue? WTF.
Again the disparity between civilian law and use of force and what the police can do needs to be addressed.
RE: Conflicting commands - doesn’t matter in this case. Listen to the officer who is basically saying he needs to comply or they’re going to whoop his ass. He was out to engage in violence. None of the interaction had to do with safety. The officers, the public, or the Lt.
The disparity between how calm the Lt. was and how the police acted is pretty telling.
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If the shoe fits...
I don't think I've ever discussed graffiti on this forum, so no, I don't believe I was, but who knows? I've talked a lot of shit on here. It wouldn't surprise me if our respective outlooks on that topic also differed completely though.
But back to this, since you've now reiterated it, you believe that non-compliance is grounds for the police to murder you, got it. For somebody who seems to contemplate these things deeply, this seems wildly incongruent. This will never add up to me. When I see bootlickers defending the police every time they murder somebody, this is always what it comes back to - maybe if he/she had listened and done what the cops said, they would still be alive.
This is indefensible, period. I don't give a fuck about talking policy, a man's life was taken for absolutely no reason. That's the end of that part of the discussion. The other part of the discussion is that if Daunte Wright was white, he would still be alive, no matter how much he did not comply.
I don't think I've ever discussed graffiti on this forum, so no, I don't believe I was, but who knows? I've talked a lot of shit on here. It wouldn't surprise me if our respective outlooks on that topic also differed completely though.
But back to this, since you've now reiterated it, you believe that non-compliance is grounds for the police to murder you, got it. For somebody who seems to contemplate these things deeply, this seems wildly incongruent. This will never add up to me. When I see bootlickers defending the police every time they murder somebody, this is always what it comes back to - maybe if he/she had listened and done what the cops said, they would still be alive.
This is indefensible, period. I don't give a fuck about talking policy, a man's life was taken for absolutely no reason. That's the end of that part of the discussion. The other part of the discussion is that if Daunte Wright was white, he would still be alive, no matter how much he did not comply.
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Well maybe both side need training, add the how react safely when pull over to the driver Ed course . We are almost at a point of where warning label must be put on everything and common sense is getting less common . Or in the future we will have a AI or robot do all the pull over and interactions .
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A safe outcome is on the police.
He didn’t say that and if if I’m not mistaken we are talking about the army Lt, who didn’t die. He was just hit with chemical weapons.
the other story we were talking about was the accidental shooting.
which case are you talking about?
Neither of the above feature someone getting killed for failing to comply. The 20 year old died because the police officer was a fucking idiot. Period.
Sure there is a case to be made for not using force, I’m not sure that one is it.
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Pulling into a well lit station is a form of non violent self defense, and the question of illegality is for a jury to decide if at all, not the officer, whose role is merely to raise the question.
when being stopped, black drivers are being taught to turn on the interior lights, put their hands where they can be seen. Education is happening for black drivers. It’s happening for the police as well, but power is a helluva drug.
a traffic stop shouldn’t involve a gun, period. If an officer feels threatened at all, the should call another car nearby for backup. But the officer who addresses the stopped driver shouldn’t need his weapon out.
corruption occurs in many wrinkles of society. In business, we spot corruption when a person has too much power, too much access, too much responsibility. Fraud auditors will advise the company to separate those responsibilities. If you have the nuclear codes, and no one else does, it’s a scary situation. If those codes are split in 3, it’s less scary.
what I am getting at is having police operate separate roles. Public facing: no gun; back up cop: has gun.
when being stopped, black drivers are being taught to turn on the interior lights, put their hands where they can be seen. Education is happening for black drivers. It’s happening for the police as well, but power is a helluva drug.
a traffic stop shouldn’t involve a gun, period. If an officer feels threatened at all, the should call another car nearby for backup. But the officer who addresses the stopped driver shouldn’t need his weapon out.
corruption occurs in many wrinkles of society. In business, we spot corruption when a person has too much power, too much access, too much responsibility. Fraud auditors will advise the company to separate those responsibilities. If you have the nuclear codes, and no one else does, it’s a scary situation. If those codes are split in 3, it’s less scary.
what I am getting at is having police operate separate roles. Public facing: no gun; back up cop: has gun.
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Some people just aren't cut out for police work.
Some people don't do well in a stressful situations (see the officers in VA). They get tunnel vision, lose track of the time and act rash.
For other people, these situations activate thier lizard brain. Time slows down, they assess the situation and think clearly.
Some people don't do well in a stressful situations (see the officers in VA). They get tunnel vision, lose track of the time and act rash.
For other people, these situations activate thier lizard brain. Time slows down, they assess the situation and think clearly.
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It was a good shot in the dark. Still, lots of cops killed in vehicle accidents (up to 1/3). Pulling into a well lit gas station is in the officer's best interest.As for your last point, I don't think it's true. Not saying cops are getting gunned down left and right but getting hit by car is also pretty rare.
Police fatalities: One in 10 deaths happen when vehicles strike officers
Compared to other risks of the job, vehicle strikes are rare. But the serious injuries to a Colerain Township officer show the consequences are severe.www.cincinnati.com
From the dialog on the video, the police tried to rationalize thier fear by mentioning people out there trying to harm police officers. I wonder how many people trying to hurt police officers take the effort to pull into a well lit area.
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@Ajax, yeah we are taking about different cases. I was talking about Nazario.
A page back I said that Wright resisted arrest and officer fucked up bad seemingly mistaking service weapon for taser. Both are true and is not at all justifying a roadside execution.
I was taught this 20 years ago when learning to drive. Everyone should do this, not just black drivers.
A page back I said that Wright resisted arrest and officer fucked up bad seemingly mistaking service weapon for taser. Both are true and is not at all justifying a roadside execution.
I was taught this 20 years ago when learning to drive. Everyone should do this, not just black drivers.
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Absolutely and I've taken a minute to go a little further before to either pull over at an exit ramp or say past a guardrail section where the shoulder is thin to a section where I can get pretty far off the roadway.
I think cops recognize this, that's why I'm so curious about the video for the full length of the stop to see what he was doing. There are ways to signal your intentions, they aren't foolproof though and I wouldn't advise taking more than a minute to find a place to stop.
Edit: I grabbed the wrong norton post.
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Sometimes you comply:
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I’ve also driven further to be pulled over. I was on the main drag in town (a highway) and pulled on to the next available side road where you could park so the officer didn’t have to approach my window with cars going 55mph blasting past him.
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You have to click this one because it is considered too graphic by youtube.
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And things can easily go the other way. It all depends on how we want to use cops. I've said before that I'm seriously not interested in individual cases because it is almost always a reflections of policy not people.
Cop got killed because he happened to pull over the wrong nut on the wrong day for... a window tint check.
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So what's your point again?
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That just posting videos isn't going to change policing in America?