Juan Williams' Firing: W.T.F.

[brentsg]

Happened across this commentary and it pretty much summed up my feelings on the issue.

Excerpt:

The unwillingness to face issues that have a subtle smell of prejudice only perpetuates the kinds of gut reactions that we all know are frequent in today’s society to any cultural symbol associated with Islam.

As with the recent dispute on “The View,” in which Goldberg and Behar walked off stage after O’Reilly equated the war against terrorists with a war against Muslims, NPR’s termination of Williams’ contract was representative of a greater problem in today’s society — the inability to talk about Islam in a vocabulary that is not politically charged.

When dialogue about an issue is somehow polarized into those camps of unequivocally for and ethnocentrically against, it should be clear that true dialogue about the issue has ceased.

Only when people like Williams are allowed to address their reactions to Muslims in airports without being immediately branded as bigots and reacted to on those terms, will any understanding be reached about how and why those reactions are unnecessary.

Article: http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=77905

 

[THE FN SHOW]

he's was an analyst for npr...his comments were said on fox news...now if he said what he said while on npr then i agree that then they should/could fire him...i think the whole world needs to get the sand out of their vagina's and relax

 

[Marek]

It's obvious from your comments that you didn't actually listen to the entire exchange. He made the statement about feeling fear when someone who's gone out of their way to identify themselves publicly as Muslim sits down with him on an airplane. He then went on to take the position that we MUST be able to differentiate between ordinary Muslims and the extremists that wish us harm, so as not to paint all of Islam with a broad brush.

The dude was basically making the point that you're trying to make in the post, and he was fired for it. And you're glad that it happened. It makes no sense.

Disagree.

We MUST be able to differentiate??

How can I differentiate between the countless dudes I see wearing an Earnhart hat/shirt with potentially racist jail tats and some guy plotting to bomb an abortion clinic and/or the assassination of Barack Obama?

Well, Im afraid I cant. I can't they look like everyday folks. (If you need a definition of 'folks' please watch the Bill O'Reilly vs. Jon Steward unedited 'conversation'.)

 

[Marek]

So 'The View' women walked off stage rather than call O'Reily the bigot method actor that he really is? Big fucking deal. They dont want to state the obvious, face to face. Typical Poppa Bear goes on the Woman Show and DOMINATES AND NONE OF THE INFERIOR GENDERS VIEW IS MADE TO SEEM IMPORTANT BECAUSE THEY WALK OFF STAGE. But do they even care? Thats the question.

 

[Igniz v2]

Here's me going on a tangent again. I don't think that's anti-American, but I do think it is needlessly inflammatory and confrontational. Too many people from both the anti-West extreme and the quaking-in-fear knee-jerk xenophobes here would see it as a flag of victory being planted. Here's an idea: let's not build anything religious of any kind on ground zero.

And if there's anything religious already in the area -- like say a Roman Catholic church -- let's tear that down while we're at it.

I just cannot empathize with the anti-"mosque" rhetoric on any level.. Not only is it not a mosque, not only did the south tower have a mosque in it, but the networks gave it way too much attention and it simply makes things more dangerous for the soldiers when insurgents can show reports of mosque bombings, quran burning, dumbasses holding up signs saying "NO SHARIA LAW IN USA" in america and use it as a recruiting ad. It's 2 blocks away.. How many blocks away is it OK to build a decidedly UNorthodox muslim building? Olbermann sums it up pretty well.. this wave of anti-islamic sentiment, "Brought to you by our right wing and endorsed by theirs".. Yes, I live in canada and watch a lot of MSNBC if that wasn't apparent already but seriously.. there's just no reason why anyone as a proud american should be against that building.

/rant

Anyways about the guy.. He'll be much more comfortable at Fox. All's well that ends well. NPR has an image and audience to maintain and once a remark like that is said by someone on their airwaves it's perfectly reasonable that they won't be coming back on them.

And greg goddamn it dude give it a rest, permanently

 

[THE FN SHOW]

and they're shouldn't be sharia law in the usa...we have our set od laws...you don't like it the leave...simple

 

[SML]

and they're shouldn't be sharia law in the usa...we have our set od laws...you don't like it the leave...simple

And of course kick out the Rabinnical courts as well, right?

 

[brentsg]

Disagree.

We MUST be able to differentiate??

How can I differentiate between the countless dudes I see wearing an Earnhart hat/shirt with potentially racist jail tats and some guy plotting to bomb an abortion clinic and/or the assassination of Barack Obama?

I think you're taking this too literally.

The larger picture that he was trying to illustrate is that there are important issues in our country that are, at least in some measure, related to race (and similar). He was utilizing US/Muslim relations as his example. His point is that if an issue is tinged with race (or similar) in any way then it's not politically correct to discuss it and you might find yourself the target of attack simply for trying to have dialog. I believe that he is correct with this analysis.

The example that he used was .. while there are certainly Muslims that would like to behead us and blow up our planes, they are in the small minority and they are not the norm. This is also true. He wasn't literally saying it would be helpful to visually identify them (but hey, it would be helpful).

So basically, while it would be beneficial to have some dialog and remind people that while fear is a natural human reaction that we all have, we can't let that cloud our judgment and our perception of others by painting with a broad brush.

Anyways I rarely agree with Juan Williams, but on this I do. America has become far too PC and I'm tired of it. People need to be able to speak their minds and anything less is intolerance. I don't claim that NPR wasn't within its rights by firing him, but I certainly think it was an error that says a lot about their leadership.. and their underlying bias.

 

[OrochiEddie]

i generally agree with your sentiment, but does what this guy did really constitute racism?

you imply that it does, but it's predicated on the assumption that he got nervous because they were black.

maybe he thought they looked like thugs? some people are so brainwashed by the PC bullshit that they'd rather risk their ass and not walk away from people who are obvious scumbags than to risk appearing racist.

IT's not direct racism, but it's a form none the less.
I've done a decent amount of research on the subject lately (not to go all Wizzy on you), but from my personal opinion and those expressed by the larger scientific body, everyone is at least prejudice in some way. Most of these prejudices are ingrained into us do to cultural and systematic racist exposure. As intelligent humans we work hard to fight against those immediate racist reactions. If you want I can get into the details and all that, but I'll just leave the generally accept types of racism to mull over.

Dominative (old-fashioned) racism refers to overt expres¬sions of racial animosity and a belief in White racial superi¬ority
Symbolic (modern) racism the expressed belief that racism no longer exists in U.S. society and the assertion that Black individuals and other persons of color are too demanding of equal rights.
Laissez-faire racism legitimizes ongoing racial oppression within the context of changing economic and political reali¬ties in the United States Laissez-faire racists are very resistant to any efforts to seek race-based equality, such as affirmative action.
Ambivalent racism is characterized by the mutual coex¬istence of both positive and negative racial attitudes toward people of color
Color-blind racism involves the denial or the minimizing of the ways in which various forms of racism continue to exist in the United States

These are also by no means the clearest definitions, i'm merely posting what I had written down in some notes.

As for the firing, yea, I feel that was a comment saved for his personal life not his professional one.

 

[OrochiEddie]

I think you're taking this too literally.

The larger picture that he was trying to illustrate is that there are important issues in our country that are, at least in some measure, related to race (and similar). He was utilizing US/Muslim relations as his example. His point is that if an issue is tinged with race (or similar) in any way then it's not politically correct to discuss it and you might find yourself the target of attack simply for trying to have dialog. I believe that he is correct with this analysis.

The example that he used was .. while there are certainly Muslims that would like to behead us and blow up our planes, they are in the small minority and they are not the norm. This is also true. He wasn't literally saying it would be helpful to visually identify them (but hey, it would be helpful).

So basically, while it would be beneficial to have some dialog and remind people that while fear is a natural human reaction that we all have, we can't let that cloud our judgment and our perception of others by painting with a broad brush.

Anyways I rarely agree with Juan Williams, but on this I do. America has become far too PC and I'm tired of it. People need to be able to speak their minds and anything less is intolerance. I don't claim that NPR wasn't within its rights by firing him, but I certainly think it was an error that says a lot about their leadership.. and their underlying bias.

Dialog would be nice, but there are many issues. Most often people of different races and cultures are not on the same level.

Intergroup contact reduces prej. if groups 1.share similar tasks & status 2. involved in personal activities that promote meaningful interactions

Contact Hypothesis: personal contact with groups of people can have positive effects
1. equal status
2. common group goals
3. emphasis on the need to promote cooperation
4. overt sanction and support by authority be mindful of situation established


I love it when my research shows up in relevant settings

Happened across this commentary and it pretty much summed up my feelings on the issue.

Excerpt:

The unwillingness to face issues that have a subtle smell of prejudice only perpetuates the kinds of gut reactions that we all know are frequent in today’s society to any cultural symbol associated with Islam.

As with the recent dispute on “The View,” in which Goldberg and Behar walked off stage after O’Reilly equated the war against terrorists with a war against Muslims, NPR’s termination of Williams’ contract was representative of a greater problem in today’s society — the inability to talk about Islam in a vocabulary that is not politically charged.

When dialogue about an issue is somehow polarized into those camps of unequivocally for and ethnocentrically against, it should be clear that true dialogue about the issue has ceased.

Only when people like Williams are allowed to address their reactions to Muslims in airports without being immediately branded as bigots and reacted to on those terms, will any understanding be reached about how and why those reactions are unnecessary.

Article: http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=77905

Here is the thing. You basically can't discuss Muslims without it being politically charged these days, especially on Fox. Try and have a logical conversation about Muslims on there...it's fucking impossible

 

[Segata_Sanshiro]

Not all Muslims are terrorists, I've met some and they're very normal people.

and they're shouldn't be sharia law in the usa...we have our set od laws...you don't like it the leave...simple

...

God

 

[norton9478]

and they're shouldn't be sharia law in the usa...we have our set od laws...you don't like it the leave...simple

Ahh, Sharia.

the new Floride in drinking water.

 

[galfordo]

IT's not direct racism, but it's a form none the less.

how can you make that assertion?

there's no way to get inside a person's head, and if you assume they avoided someone solely based on that person's ethnicity, then you're certainly guilty of the same thing that you assume they're guilty of

it's really nothing more than brainwashing and PC nonsense

 

[abasuto]

O'Reilly walked up on The View and ran two of them off their own set. I don't like the Irish prick, but goddamn if that wasn't awesome. That's a victory for men there. Taking on 4 nagging women at once and winning.

Also, "Be quiet because you might learn something" is one of the best phrases ever created.

 

[OrochiEddie]

how can you make that assertion?

there's no way to get inside a person's head, and if you assume they avoided someone solely based on that person's ethnicity, then you're certainly guilty of the same thing that you assume they're guilty of

it's really nothing more than brainwashing and PC nonsense

It's an interesting take on that notion, but it isn't like people are observing individuals and going "AH AH you moved your kid three feet to the left when you passed by the black people on the right! Racist!" ...well ok there are, but lets excuse them for a minute here.
Think of it like this, there are two levels of prejudice, immediate, and meditated. We all have some form of immediate prejudice in us, and there really isn't anything wrong with it. The issue is when people have a chance to think about the situation and still react in a bigoted way.

Besides, he specifically stated he gets nervous around Muslims, that is prejudice. He is going off assumptions and stereotypes he has made for himself. To be honest I find no issue with his statement (being a 20 something white male), but I have an issue with the forum he said it. I think we should be allowed to discuss our fears and opinions openly, but there is a right place to do it and that is NOT on a cable news show that is predominantly viewed by people who are afraid of anything brown skinned because they will blow them up, shoot them, or take their jobs. If you want to sit down with some people and discuss privately, yea I think its ok to air our minds out.

In addition I'm simply not a fan of having Middle Easterners/Arabs/Muslims (to generalize unfortunately) as the new ethnic whipping boy. I'm sure if 9/11 never happened people would still be complaining about how "I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."

So yea, long story short, what he said wasn't as much of a deal as where he said it.

To be fair I'm a goody goody green ultra left PC douche so take it as you will

 

[fake]

It's an interesting take on that notion, but it isn't like people are observing individuals and going "AH AH you moved your kid three feet to the left when you passed by the black people on the right! Racist!" ...well ok there are, but lets excuse them for a minute here.
Think of it like this, there are two levels of prejudice, immediate, and meditated. We all have some form of immediate prejudice in us, and there really isn't anything wrong with it. The issue is when people have a chance to think about the situation and still react in a bigoted way.

Besides, he specifically stated he gets nervous around Muslims, that is prejudice. He is going off assumptions and stereotypes he has made for himself. To be honest I find no issue with his statement (being a 20 something white male), but I have an issue with the forum he said it. I think we should be allowed to discuss our fears and opinions openly, but there is a right place to do it and that is NOT on a cable news show that is predominantly viewed by people who are afraid of anything brown skinned because they will blow them up, shoot them, or take their jobs. If you want to sit down with some people and discuss privately, yea I think its ok to air our minds out.

In addition I'm simply not a fan of having Middle Easterners/Arabs/Muslims (to generalize unfortunately) as the new ethnic whipping boy. I'm sure if 9/11 never happened people would still be complaining about how "I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."

So yea, long story short, what he said wasn't as much of a deal as where he said it.

To be fair I'm a goody goody green ultra left PC douche so take it as you will

High five.

If anyone's wondering about the "immediate" racism OE was talking about, here's a taste of it: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

 

[OrochiEddie]

High five.

If anyone's wondering about the "immediate" racism OE was talking about, here's a taste of it: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

Yea, the IAT. Good test with high reliability and validity. The AMP is also a good one.

 

[GunstarHero]

It's an interesting take on that notion, but it isn't like people are observing individuals and going "AH AH you moved your kid three feet to the left when you passed by the black people on the right! Racist!" ...well ok there are, but lets excuse them for a minute here.
Think of it like this, there are two levels of prejudice, immediate, and meditated. We all have some form of immediate prejudice in us, and there really isn't anything wrong with it. The issue is when people have a chance to think about the situation and still react in a bigoted way.

Besides, he specifically stated he gets nervous around Muslims, that is prejudice. He is going off assumptions and stereotypes he has made for himself. To be honest I find no issue with his statement (being a 20 something white male), but I have an issue with the forum he said it. I think we should be allowed to discuss our fears and opinions openly, but there is a right place to do it and that is NOT on a cable news show that is predominantly viewed by people who are afraid of anything brown skinned because they will blow them up, shoot them, or take their jobs. If you want to sit down with some people and discuss privately, yea I think its ok to air our minds out.

In addition I'm simply not a fan of having Middle Easterners/Arabs/Muslims (to generalize unfortunately) as the new ethnic whipping boy. I'm sure if 9/11 never happened people would still be complaining about how "I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."

So yea, long story short, what he said wasn't as much of a deal as where he said it.

To be fair I'm a goody goody green ultra left PC douche so take it as you will

I don't see Islam as a whipping boy , in fact it seems more and more to be another Sacred Cow that no one is allowed to talk about in any negative way. This Juan Williams thing is a glaring example. He seems to have a learned stereotype that troubles him, and I don't see how this is some insane stereotype honestly. Islamics have been hijacking planes since before the Carter administration. It's not a comparable issue to worrying about abortion clinic bombers because that is something that has happened a minuscule amount of times, (Eric Rudolf was an Atheist btw). When abortion clinics are being bombed every day on all the continents, then we can compare it to Islamist terror which is responsible for over 16,000 deadly attacks since 9/11.

Point is, Juan is right, people should be able to discuss this whole thing without being called a bigot. It's pretty funny though that a raging lib like him is being labeled a bigot, I'm sure he's given his fair share of accusations out there labeling people, particularly conservatives, as bigots and racists.

 

[abasuto]

The US is a nation of hypersensitive people who's fingers only point at others.