kyokugenryu vs. shotokan
- Thread starter HIDDEN WARRIOR
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Ramjet Aries
n00b
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- Apr 16, 2001
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HW, I see you've posted the same topic here as the one at ON. But permit me to add what I posted on your thread at ON to the one here. I'd like to see what other people on this forum think.
Given that Kyokugen has a gained variety since it's been refined upon by Ryo, Robert, and Yuri. The fundamentals, of course, were courtesy of Takuma. So I don't mind the fact that their individual styles vary from each other yet retain the basics that Kyokugen has always had.
But I wouldn't say that Shotokan hasn't gained any variation ever since it's creation. There may be disagreement with this but allow me to continue; let's go back to what we know about Shotokan history (SF storyline). It's commonly known that Gouken and Gouki were both instructed in the original art of Shotokan by Master Goutetsu. What they were taught was meant to kill their opponents. While Gouki embraced the killing arts, Gouken on the other hand followed a different path. Although Gouken didn't use his skills to kill, he retained what he learned and resisted the urge to incorporate murderous intent with his technique. Gouken taught as much to his two students, namely Ryu and Ken, the non-killing style that he used. After Goutetsu and Gouken's death at the hands of Gouki, we now have Ryu and Ken as the successors to the Shotokan arts. It would be safe to assume that Ryu may be considered as the basis for the fundamentals of the original Shotokan arts since what we know of his technique is purely a refinement of the basics: Hadouken, Shoryuken, Tatsumaki, etc. Ken, as all of you already know, incorporated his own variations into his technique and developed his own type of Shotokan karate. Hence we see moves like his Shinryuken and Shippuu Jinrai Kyaku... not to mention his arsenal of kicks. Akuma, of course, is the current master of the killing arts of Shotokan karate; I may even go as far to say that he and Ryu represent both the Good and Dark sides of Shotokan karate. Then finally, we have Sean and Sakura. Both have incorporated their own preferences into the basic Shotokan technique yet retaining the fundamentals... Sean, as instructed by Ken. Sakura? I don't know if she was actually under Ryu's instruction although I know that he was a major influence.
To end my lengthy discourse, I would like to point out that having fewer techniques or having fewer variations don't necessarily mean that an art is better than another. The same goes for the opposite. To quote what I read somewhere, "Purity of style is just as important as variety of style...".
Whew!
Given that Kyokugen has a gained variety since it's been refined upon by Ryo, Robert, and Yuri. The fundamentals, of course, were courtesy of Takuma. So I don't mind the fact that their individual styles vary from each other yet retain the basics that Kyokugen has always had.
But I wouldn't say that Shotokan hasn't gained any variation ever since it's creation. There may be disagreement with this but allow me to continue; let's go back to what we know about Shotokan history (SF storyline). It's commonly known that Gouken and Gouki were both instructed in the original art of Shotokan by Master Goutetsu. What they were taught was meant to kill their opponents. While Gouki embraced the killing arts, Gouken on the other hand followed a different path. Although Gouken didn't use his skills to kill, he retained what he learned and resisted the urge to incorporate murderous intent with his technique. Gouken taught as much to his two students, namely Ryu and Ken, the non-killing style that he used. After Goutetsu and Gouken's death at the hands of Gouki, we now have Ryu and Ken as the successors to the Shotokan arts. It would be safe to assume that Ryu may be considered as the basis for the fundamentals of the original Shotokan arts since what we know of his technique is purely a refinement of the basics: Hadouken, Shoryuken, Tatsumaki, etc. Ken, as all of you already know, incorporated his own variations into his technique and developed his own type of Shotokan karate. Hence we see moves like his Shinryuken and Shippuu Jinrai Kyaku... not to mention his arsenal of kicks. Akuma, of course, is the current master of the killing arts of Shotokan karate; I may even go as far to say that he and Ryu represent both the Good and Dark sides of Shotokan karate. Then finally, we have Sean and Sakura. Both have incorporated their own preferences into the basic Shotokan technique yet retaining the fundamentals... Sean, as instructed by Ken. Sakura? I don't know if she was actually under Ryu's instruction although I know that he was a major influence.
To end my lengthy discourse, I would like to point out that having fewer techniques or having fewer variations don't necessarily mean that an art is better than another. The same goes for the opposite. To quote what I read somewhere, "Purity of style is just as important as variety of style...".
Whew!
HIDDEN WARRIOR
Ninja Combat Warrior
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2001
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- 539
first let me appologize for lack of interest in my own thread.Over all I started this topic knowing the answer.HIDDEN WARRIOR is always correct when it comes to snk related things.Yet I wanted to see and read the thoughts of the mass's here and at ON.com.
its funny when you think about it.Ken's student is weak as is sakura who learned from watching ryu and dan.But takuma's student(yuri)is actually quite strong as is ryo's student marco/butt.You also forgot to mention the 7th student of shotokan,retsu.The kyokugenryu team consist of 5 members while the shotokan team consist of 7.But the former has the advantage despite fewer members.Also worth noting is that dans fighting style isnt purely shotokan but its also muei thai.He mixes both to create his original saikyo style karate.Your history lesson of the events of shotokan im very aware of.But here's something to think about.Ryo defeated mr.karate in aof 1.thus he is stronger then his father.Robert is ryo's equal.Takuma deflected a blast from a spaCE saTElite that can destroy a whole city.Imagine what a HAOSHOKOHKEN can do to the human body.You see,akuma unlocked the killer arts of shotokan.But takuma has taught all of kyokugenryu his killer arts from day one.Even their weakest link(yuri) knows the haoshokohken.KYOKUGENRYU is lethal compared to the tame shotokan.Their was always an obvious difference in ki levels even way back in aof 1 when you compared it to current streetfighter II at the time which was champion edition.Even when ryu learned the shinkuu hadoken snk fans laughed at what capcom considers a "super fireball".Just look at ryu's current supers.
shinkuu hadoken
shinkuu tatsumaki senpuukyaku
shin shoryuken
denjin hadoken
all are kinda weak in ki when just compared to a haoshokohken.
only akuma is at the kyokugenryu level.
just to make it clear,Im speaking strictly story-wise.
its funny when you think about it.Ken's student is weak as is sakura who learned from watching ryu and dan.But takuma's student(yuri)is actually quite strong as is ryo's student marco/butt.You also forgot to mention the 7th student of shotokan,retsu.The kyokugenryu team consist of 5 members while the shotokan team consist of 7.But the former has the advantage despite fewer members.Also worth noting is that dans fighting style isnt purely shotokan but its also muei thai.He mixes both to create his original saikyo style karate.Your history lesson of the events of shotokan im very aware of.But here's something to think about.Ryo defeated mr.karate in aof 1.thus he is stronger then his father.Robert is ryo's equal.Takuma deflected a blast from a spaCE saTElite that can destroy a whole city.Imagine what a HAOSHOKOHKEN can do to the human body.You see,akuma unlocked the killer arts of shotokan.But takuma has taught all of kyokugenryu his killer arts from day one.Even their weakest link(yuri) knows the haoshokohken.KYOKUGENRYU is lethal compared to the tame shotokan.Their was always an obvious difference in ki levels even way back in aof 1 when you compared it to current streetfighter II at the time which was champion edition.Even when ryu learned the shinkuu hadoken snk fans laughed at what capcom considers a "super fireball".Just look at ryu's current supers.
shinkuu hadoken
shinkuu tatsumaki senpuukyaku
shin shoryuken
denjin hadoken
all are kinda weak in ki when just compared to a haoshokohken.
only akuma is at the kyokugenryu level.
just to make it clear,Im speaking strictly story-wise.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2001
- Posts
- 1,858
Dan uses Muay Tai?!!? since when? He uses a combination of Shotoken (The Basics) and his father's (Go Hibiki) own style... Which he was teaching to Dan. Dan believes that he is using his fathers fighting style, but he's actually using a weak variation.
I always find it funny how I can like the Kyokugenryu crew but at the same time dispise the Shotokan crew (Well Ryu, Ken, and Akuma anyway; the others aren't quite as bad as they are.). Same goes for Demitri, Morrigan, and Lilith. While it's true the Shotos only have a handful of moves yet they're powerful; that also lies a problem. Something I've learned over the years against both human and CPU opponents alike is that I will always hate the Hurrican Kick move. Everytime I block it and try to counter afterwards I'm getting tossed, Dragon Punched, or supered because the recovery time is almost non-existant. Trying to hit them out of it isn't any easier either. I'm proberly the only person who will always trade hits when I use a low Fierce uppercut against that damn move. The invicible window on the Dragon Punch is also too wide. Why can't it be similar to Sagat's Tiger Blow!? And then there's the recover or lack of vulnerability on certain supers. Why is it that Ken's Hurrican super ends short of doing the rising Hurricane kick when blocked (CvS and Zero 3 are the only exceptions I can think of.) in most games but Sagat, Cammy, etc who have similar supers go through all the attacks which leaves them open as a hole? Little things like that always pissed me off about those Shotos. The fireball supers are just as bad as the Hurricane kick on the recovery. I've lost count of times I've blocked a point blank range Shinkuu Hadoken only to eat a follow-up attack when I try to counter. Never cared for the raging demon either; Morrigan's Darkness Illusion is still better by miles IMO. At any rate Ryo, Robert, Yuri, Takuma, Demitri, and Morrigan have all evole one way or another. Might hve been the addition of new moves or the lost of some old ones; but they've all evolve more so than the Shotos every will.
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"Don't be scared! I'll only cut off one of your heads! Guess!"
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"Don't be scared! I'll only cut off one of your heads! Guess!"
Um, you're just wishing that Capcom moves behave more like SNK ones...
Hurricane Kick isn't that difficult to counter, and it's only really dangerous in SFA3. Every other game the HK is not as dangerous a threat.
DP invulnerbility? Um... the excessive invulnerbility was last seen in SSF2: the new challengers where Ryu and Ken could not be touched until they started to turn from the DP (ie; start coming down). The DP has better priority than the Tiger Uppercut, but that's the way it's always been - the tradeoff was a less safe move in exchange for ridiculous damage a la SF2.
Ken's Hurricane Kick super in SF3 is one of the best in the game, simply due to how fast it charges up and how fast it comes out. But if it's blocked he stays in that knee animation, and he can still be nailed pretty badly...
Blocking point-blank Shinkuu Hadoken and getting hit when you try to counter afterwards: Firstly, which game was this? Shinkuu Hadoken recovery isn't that good. <<shrug>> anyway, you got baited into countering and your opponent was waiting for you. btw you can outpoke point-blank shinkuu hadokens with the right moves... crouch MP is usually quite good.
Raging Demon is a move for kids to wow over, or for experts to work in at really unusual situations - but even then it's still escapable. Outside of CVS1, it's usually impossible to land it on an alert opponent.
YellDellGW, your experiences seem to be that of someone trying to play SF KOF style... it doesn't work. Just as playing KOF SF style won't work either. Match the strategy to the game...
Tried it Rain. You'd be amazed at how much I suck at countering the move. Rook my countering abilities have never been that great. Timing is something I've never gotten that great at either (At least where SF's concern. I've done far better at KOF and Vampire.). And for the record I played SF long before I even touched KOF. That's just how I play. I have tried countering more instead of blocking then countering; but 9 times out of 10 the match ends faster because my moves are countered thus I take double normal damage (What bastard thought of this counter hit garbage anyway?!).
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"Don't be scared! I'll only cut off one of your heads! Guess!"
Counter hit damage only is a major factor in SF2:WW. Double damage on counter... DPing Blanka out of his ball can yield you 50% damage. SFA3 has a minor bonus and results in a float, but that can be used to your advantage to get out of crossup situations.
As for playing SF before moving on to KOF, I think most of us did. At least, that's what happened to most people I know. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">
HIDDEN WARRIOR
Ninja Combat Warrior
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2001
- Posts
- 539
to YELDELL GW: counterhit damage was created by the virtua fighter series I believe.
to rook: have you played streetfighter ex series?I believe that game has the fastest recovering shinkuu hadoken ever.If you block it,your opponent gets 1st priority to hit you 1st.Sucks doesnt it?I believe that is the streetfighter game YELLDEL GW was refering to.
to rook: have you played streetfighter ex series?I believe that game has the fastest recovering shinkuu hadoken ever.If you block it,your opponent gets 1st priority to hit you 1st.Sucks doesnt it?I believe that is the streetfighter game YELLDEL GW was refering to.
Iori's Maiden Masher in KOF'96 was like that too... if you block it and try to retaliate with a sweep your opponent can recover in time and catch you in another Maiden Masher.
The EX series has a really fast shinkuu hadoken in terms of execution, and it recovers decently... IIRC you both recovered at the same time, it's just that if you respond with a slow attack (crouch HK for example) you'll get hit out of it if your opponent predicts it. But pretty much most supers in the EX series came out really fast and were (ridiculously) combo friendly. IMHO Ryu is only average in that series, mainly because if you can predict his FB (even super FB), you can sweep him out from under it and the FB will harmlessly pass over your head...
As for the EX series, I didn't play much beyond EX+a...Zangief ruled EX1, and EX2 had Excels which changed the game completely, and I never played EX3. Personally, I don't like the EX series much.
I dunno if YelDellGW is talking abt that game because Ryu's Hurricane Kicks in that game aren't as good as compared to his other versions - they are all too slow to catch anyone by surprise and he has better options to combo into.
As to your point about Koukyugenryu vs Shotokan, I'd disagree about comparing it from a storyline stance. Storyline wise, either company can just continually attempt to one-up the other. In KOF2000 Takuma's Haohshokohken deflects the Zero cannon, and in CVS2 Akuma's "satsui no hado" revives him from the dead! I shudder to think what's next.
And of course, gameplay wise we're back to square one: A matter of opinion.
cheers!
well...
I hate Ryo SO MUCH it's disgusting. i HATE HIM.
I like Ryu, but the shotos are all the same in my opinion.
Oh well.
but...
if i did have to choose between of of the styles, i would have to say Kyokugen because there are so many more useful moves in kyokugenryu, and that Ryo ALWAYS gives me trouble (well, until last week. hahahahaha...) while Ryu almost never does.
I hate Ryo SO MUCH it's disgusting. i HATE HIM.
I like Ryu, but the shotos are all the same in my opinion.
Oh well.
but...
if i did have to choose between of of the styles, i would have to say Kyokugen because there are so many more useful moves in kyokugenryu, and that Ryo ALWAYS gives me trouble (well, until last week. hahahahaha...) while Ryu almost never does.