Sanders could not beat Biden

Xavier

Master Brewer, Genzai Sake Co.
20 Year Member
Sanders bowed out of the Democratic primaries
conceding to Joe Biden


Sanders Polling

If they're to be believed Sanders has been beating him for over four years now.

Hell look even Fox News polling consistently shows Sanders winning.
 
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sr20det510

Whip's Subordinate
I don't think Sanders can defeat Trump.
Trump will start the Sanders is a socialist and wants to end capitalism rhetoric and his people will eat it up.

I think Sanders can get the popular vote, but the one that counts, the electoral college vote is Trumps. I would imagine Trump would prefer to face Bernie because his socialist ideas are easy to rag on.
 

Lagduf

2>X
20 Year Member
Will trump even “debate” Sanders or any dem opponent? I feel like it would be a waste of time to debate trump. It’s be like arguing with a flat earther. Sanders would probably be damned if he did and damned if he didn’t.

Did Trump debate Hillary in 2016? I don’t remember.
 

Xavier

Master Brewer, Genzai Sake Co.
20 Year Member
Will trump even “debate” Sanders or any dem opponent? I feel like it would be a waste of time to debate trump. It’s be like arguing with a flat earther. Sanders would probably be damned if he did and damned if he didn’t.

Did Trump debate Hillary in 2016? I don’t remember.

Well he refuses to debate any Republicans.

Yeah him and Hillary debated, you don't remember him creeping behind her every time she talked?

[video]https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/us-news/video/2016/oct/10/donald-trump-behind-hillary-clinton-debate-video[/video]
 

100proof

Insert Something Clever Here
10 Year Member
What percent of Sanders voters support socialism, without Sanders on it?

Most Americans support using taxpayer money to support public projects that provide public good... Medicare, social security, government-financed police force, etc. The only thing they hate is the word socialism because conservative punditry has spent the last 40 years decrying "free handouts" (but only if they go to minorities) and comparing socialism to communism and Venezuela so many Americans now have a visceral reaction any time someone uses the word socialism... while they're on their way to cash their social security check and tell us how much blue lives matter.

The real problem, of course, is getting anything Bernie wants done through the meat grinder of Congress and the judicial system. Bold ideas are great but the American system of government is specifically designed to mute any one person's ability to make sweeping changes. It's one of the few things preventing Trump from going full banana republic (instead of most of the way there like we are now).
 

wyo

King of Spammers
10 Year Member
What percent of Sanders voters support socialism, without Sanders on it?

You're too hung up on labels and are starting to sound like a broken record.

Look at the policies Sanders is advocating: a national health insurance program, a living wage for workers, tackling climate change in a meaningful way, free college, ending student loan debt, ending cannabis prohibition. These are hardly radical ideas.
 

Lagduf

2>X
20 Year Member
Well he refuses to debate any Republicans.

Yeah him and Hillary debated, you don't remember him creeping behind her every time she talked?

[video]https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/us-news/video/2016/oct/10/donald-trump-behind-hillary-clinton-debate-video[/video]

lol nope, don’t remember that.
 

theMot

Reformed collector of junk
10 Year Member
Sanders can’t win, he’s not even the most popular Sanders in Murca. Now, if the colonel ran..
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
You're too hung up on labels and are starting to sound like a broken record.

Look at the policies Sanders is advocating: a national health insurance program, a living wage for workers, tackling climate change in a meaningful way, free college, ending student loan debt, ending cannabis prohibition. These are hardly radical ideas.

You’re looking strictly at big picture items that are buzzwords for people who don’t have much in life outside a vote (m4a, student loan forgiveness (only for those this’ll paying it off, not for people who paid it off, smokers rights). With regard to climate change, we have a lot to learn and a lot of this has been propaganda, like carbon neutralization (ex: planting $4m of tree saplings after deforesting eastern germany for an electric car factory; electric car batteries sourced with African child slave labor; the list goes on, but point is that we market “solutions” and pay out subsidies for the producers of tomorrow’s problems.

Sander’s strength is in focusing on a big picture and being as loud as possible. Buttigieg called him out on it last Wednesday pointing out that most of his own voters don’t understand or accept socialism. And in my opinion, they are merely trying to be part of something that accepts them in exchange for their vote.

Do we need to legalize another smoking product after decades of educating people against smoking’s harmful effects? No.

Are we prepared for public universities to be consolidated and streamlined down like healthcare was after Obamacare was installed? Because if you price fix college tuition or make it free, most institutions will be forced to go lean, cutting loose faculty, increasing student-teacher ratios to untenable levels. How are they going to do all that AND pay teachers more? Probably by firing more teachers.

I’m not saying that I don’t want these things to be affordable and high quality for all Americans, but that Bernie’s plan is a joke. None of the shit he talks about is happening under the 2 years he’d be alive in office before his eventual stroke. He doesn’t have the support system, he doesn’t have allies. It would simply be a Pyrrhic victory for the people, and a vainglorious victory for Sanders.
 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
I see three major components of who takes a Trump/Sanders matchup.

1. How quickly does Sanders get the nomination? If the moderate vote remains splintered between Biden/Bloomberg/Buttigieg/Klobuchar, can he have it locked up before the convention (I honestly don't know what the math is on this)? This is kind of two fold though, because the sooner he locks it up, the sooner he can try to reunite Democratic voters, but also the sooner that the oppo campaign starts, so...

2. How effective are the inevitable rips on Sanders for 'socialism'? I have a feeling that at least some of this will be effective and it will be most effective in the states where Sanders would need the most help (i.e. states that Clinton lost in 2016, Michigan/Ohio/Pennsylvania).

3. How long can the 'economy' (read: DJIA) hold on and how long can Trump keep impeachment in the public memory. I think it is clear that if impeachment made any political impact, it was largely to re-energize Trump's base. If he can hold on to that energy for nearly a year and the DJIA stays largely ok or even stagnant for 2019 then he'll probably do pretty well.

I think any Democrat has a surprisingly tough road ahead because I'm not sure I've seen any effective inroads into the specific segments of the country that would cause any change from the 2016 outcome. Even if they increase the popular vote margin and still lose the electoral college, where does that leave the Democratic party on a national level? Listless.
 

Marek

Banned
Do we need to legalize another smoking product after decades of educating people against smoking’s harmful effects? No.

You surely must be joking. I dont even smoke weed anymore but if that's all you see that issue as then I feel equal parts baffled by and sad for you.

You're far too intelligent to have that be your sole opinion on the matter.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
You surely must be joking. I dont even smoke weed anymore but if that's all you see that issue as then I feel equal parts baffled by and sad for you.

You're far too intelligent to have that be your sole opinion on the matter.

Triggered.
 

pixeljunkie

Whilst Drunk., I Found God., Booze = Bad.,
20 Year Member
I'm really hopeful for a Bernie win, I think a ton of working class peeps who voted for Trump thinking their lives would get better, clearly see that nothing changed and will flip. They can say "the economy is booming" until they are blue in the face, but unless people can actually tell... it's pointless. I think people who say "no way he can win" are basing it purely off media consumption.
 

wataru330

Mr. Wrestling IV
20 Year Member
But Sanders can't beat Trump

National debt is trillions under Trump.
If debt is in the trillions anyway, why not have it under Bernie-and get all that awesome swag and programs?

And have someone nicer at the top?

And have a halt to the wall, and National Parks being under threat, families being broken up at the border, __________?
 
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DevilRedeemed

teh
20 Year Member
From an outside point of view, its a shame Sanders is going to be wasted on a challenge to a second Trump term. He can't win. Trump has it in the bag, most of the rhetoric against him has subsided significantly, and people will vote with a "better the devil you know" mentality.
Just as Hillary was an asset to Trump the first time around, Sanders will be be the second.
People don't want the boat rocked and fear mongering is easy against a socialist poster child in the guise of Bernie Sanders.
It's happened time and time again all over the world.
Dems will have to rustle up a good looking charming younger guy for the next time. Soft left is the more palatable option for the masses.
 

wyo

King of Spammers
10 Year Member
You’re looking strictly at big picture items that are buzzwords for people who don’t have much in life outside a vote (m4a, student loan forgiveness (only for those this’ll paying it off, not for people who paid it off, smokers rights). With regard to climate change, we have a lot to learn and a lot of this has been propaganda, like carbon neutralization (ex: planting $4m of tree saplings after deforesting eastern germany for an electric car factory; electric car batteries sourced with African child slave labor; the list goes on, but point is that we market “solutions” and pay out subsidies for the producers of tomorrow’s problems.

Sander’s strength is in focusing on a big picture and being as loud as possible. Buttigieg called him out on it last Wednesday pointing out that most of his own voters don’t understand or accept socialism. And in my opinion, they are merely trying to be part of something that accepts them in exchange for their vote.

Do we need to legalize another smoking product after decades of educating people against smoking’s harmful effects? No.

Are we prepared for public universities to be consolidated and streamlined down like healthcare was after Obamacare was installed? Because if you price fix college tuition or make it free, most institutions will be forced to go lean, cutting loose faculty, increasing student-teacher ratios to untenable levels. How are they going to do all that AND pay teachers more? Probably by firing more teachers.

I’m not saying that I don’t want these things to be affordable and high quality for all Americans, but that Bernie’s plan is a joke. None of the shit he talks about is happening under the 2 years he’d be alive in office before his eventual stroke. He doesn’t have the support system, he doesn’t have allies. It would simply be a Pyrrhic victory for the people, and a vainglorious victory for Sanders.

Wow, there's a lot to unpack in your post! :D

Your "no one likes him" Clinton talking point is wrong. Sanders is 3/3 in the primary, is ahead in the polls, and is the most liked senator in the country. His ground game is on point. He has the most supporters, donors and raises the most money. He also has the most passionate supporters. It's not even close in that regard. If the corporate centrists don't like him, GOOD! The Republican establishment hated Trump but he's still managed to get some things done. Sure, they were mostly bad, but he won the election and should be free to try and enact his agenda, such as it is.

The approval rating for Congress is pathetic. If Sanders has little support from members of Congress as you suggest, it's likely a positive attribute with voters since they apparently despise Congress as well. Don't worry though, they will get on board and beg for administration jobs 5 minutes after a Sanders win. The smart ones are already calculating ahead and are not coming out as "never Bernie" people out of self interest.

The "he can't get anything done" criticism is also wrong. Sanders, or anyone else, could legalize weed and cancel student debt on day one without congressional input. Those two things alone are enough for me to vote for him. After 8 years of Obama, including 2 years of complete Democratic congressional control, he got almost jack shit done for the people that naively supported his "hope and change" bullshit, myself included.

Positive change is never easy. Your outlook seems very pessimistic. It's a good job the civil rights movement didn't pre-emptively give up due to lack of political support and allies. I enjoy reading your insights on a whole host of topics but maybe your political views could use a re-examination. I'll freely admit I was wrong about cheerleading Obama and his band of merry Wall Street centrists. I also used to think Russian meddling gave us Trump. I conveniently ignored Obama's expansion of executive powers and droning people in far off lands because he seemed like a nice guy. Honestly though, the last few years have been like watching a series of Geraldos opening empty Al Capone vaults.

Would you vote for Sanders in the general if he's the nominee? While he may not beat Trump, I firmly believe Sanders has the best chance to unseat him. Trump will outright destroy most of these jokers. What do the other candidates hope to achieve by staying in the race and attacking Sanders? A conspiracy minded person might conceive they would actually prefer Trump, but the likely answer is they are positioning for a brokered convention or perhaps it's just good old fashioned self interest and party interest over the will of the voters.
 
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evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
I get what you’re saying but it sounds like you think a presidential popular vote will make other elected representatives and senators bend the knee. They won’t. Didn’t for Obama, definitely won’t for an extremist liberal independent from Vermont whose only 3 allies are AOC, Tlaib, and Omar.

If you think, for example, that he will take that money from defense to pay for his education and health promises, you may not have been paying attention from 2009-2016.
 

norton9478

So Many Posts
No Time
For Games.
20 Year Member
Nearly Everybody likes socialism. It's just a lot of people that don't like you to call it socialism.

They will do mental backflips to tell you why social security, they hoover dam, the VA, Medicare, or the public schools aren't really socialist. I live in a town (and grew up in a town) where everybody votes republican. Everybody is afraid of socialists. Yet we/they pay $00.04-$00.07 a kwh for electricity because the local power company is owned by the municipality and it's primary source of power is hydroelectric plants run by the state. Nobody ever trashes the municipal power company.

If anything, Hugo Chavez can best be compared to Donald Trump.
 

norton9478

So Many Posts
No Time
For Games.
20 Year Member
And wasabi is just trolling. Unless he is like one of the guys in the Geico commercials with early onset boomerism.
 

norton9478

So Many Posts
No Time
For Games.
20 Year Member
The media likes to call Sanders an extremist. Yet he is the most popular politician in america. Something doesn't add up. He is popular in Rural Areas, He is popular in College Towns, He is popular in Rust Belt cities. He represents the most rural, whitest state in america. He also gets about 20% of the Republican vote (double what most senators receive).

He is for medicare for all (first proposed by Harry Truman 70 years ago). He also voted for the affordable care act. He has voted continuously to preserve it.

He's also a millionaire. And he wants to give Billionaires free college.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
And wasabi is just trolling. Unless he is like one of the guys in the Geico commercials with early onset boomerism.

No, seriously I don’t think Sanders will accomplish anything. Not even sure he will beat Trump.

And it’s silly to claim that everyone loves socialism and those in denial do mental backflips. Last I checked, about half the country still votes to decrease taxes, not to increase them to the point that we can’t do shit with our lives except visit the doctor or take a class at the public university (because that’s where all our money went after taxes - someone’s gotta pay.)
 

oliverclaude

General Morden's Aide
Should Sanders win, then he'd become the first American-Jewish President ever. Maybe things have changed, but I still don't see this happening in the US. He even "had his bar mitzvah at the historic Kingsway Jewish Center in Midwood, Brooklyn, where he grew up", which, among what Wasabi posted, rather appoints him to be DP's favorite cannon fodder, than a serious Trump knock-out. Is that 78 year old gramps really the best the DP has to offer? Where's that narcissistic beau Bill McKay, who could convincingly sell Sanders' utopia? Or at least a William Russell.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
Should Sanders win, then he'd become the first American-Jewish President ever. Maybe things have changed, but I still don't see this happening in the US. He even "had his bar mitzvah at the historic Kingsway Jewish Center in Midwood, Brooklyn, where he grew up", which, among what Wasabi posted, rather appoints him to be DP's favorite cannon fodder, than a serious Trump knock-out. Is that 78 year old gramps really the best the DP has to offer? Where's that narcissistic beau Bill McKay, who could convincingly sell Sanders' utopia? Or at least a William Russell.

I hate the idea of looking at a person and defining them by their religion, sex, or nationality. It seems like a way to define a person who has otherwise failed to define themselves. Sanders is Jewish, but I don't see him a Jewish candidate. He's defined himself as a social democrat or a democratic socialist.
 
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