Shenmue 3 Kickstarter

[Taiso]

How are they even still in business?

Do you think they were happy to waste that money backing an IP that gained them nothing? Do you think that because they're Nintendo and they have money, they have no problem throwing it away?

If they were that kind of company, they really WOULD be broke.

They will never publicly admit backing Bayonetta 2 was a dumb idea. But it was.

 

[SonGohan]

So it's basically NGDEV team then? Paying hundreds of dollars for a game you've never played, only to wait sometimes years before it's actually completed and delivered? It's a process that makes business sense when you're producing niche products, even if most people don't like it, business is business.

Shenmue 3 isn't a niche product. It's an established IP, with backing from a major company --one that's been a main player in the console wars for the last 20 years. I don't think it's possible to pick a worse analogy than the one you went with. Grats.


Let me say this: I'm not against Kickstarter. For most, it's the only option. This is hardly the case here, though.

 

[Hot Chocolate]

Do you think they were happy to waste that money backing an IP that gained them nothing? Do you think that because they're Nintendo and they have money, they have no problem throwing it away?

If they were that kind of company, they really WOULD be broke.

They will never publicly admit backing Bayonetta 2 was a dumb idea. But it was.

Should have bundled it with a Bayonetta amiibo

Sadly the only people who like Bayo are Platinum and the fans as Sega, Nintendo and Nintendo die hards don't give two shits about it

 

[Jonmkl]

Shenmue 3 isn't a niche product. It's an established IP, with backing from a major company --one that's been a main player in the console wars for the last 20 years. I don't think it's possible to pick a worse analogy than the one you went with. Grats.

It's an established IP that was not profitable, an IP that lost SEGA money consistently, and one that they aren't even putting their name on this time. And sure, Sony is "backing" it, but do you think Sony would give them a dime if they didn't hit their Kickstarter goal?

I suppose a Niche product, and a product with a dedicated cult following, but lacking in mainstream profitability are different, but they aren't that different.

Besides I was talking about Kickstarter in general. The only appreciable difference between Kickstarter and NGDEV preorders is scale.

Did you really mean Shenmue III's Kickstarter exclusively when you said it was a glorified pre-order and you are guaranteed nothing? Because technically your argument of "you are guaranteed nothing" applies more to NGDEV than Shenmue III here, specifically because of Shenmue IIIs larger fan base and backing.

Let me say this: I'm not against Kickstarter. For most, it's the only option. This is hardly the case here, though.

You're basing that on the idea that Sony should believe in, or does believe in a historically money losing franchise enough to invest in it.

This likely is the only way this game get's made. A Kickstarter to prove to investors like Sony that they will get their money back. Sony gave it stage time, but they made no promises to fund it if the kickstarter failed.

Let's also not forget, Shenmue III certainly hasn't gotten made for the last 15 years without kickstarter.

Edit: Just a reminder, when they announced this kickstarter on the stage at E3, Sony said "This is very much their project, but we wanted to celebrate their announcement on our stage." You know there is some kind of deal on the table with Sony, but to assume they've already secured Sony's full backing on the project is just an assumption.

 

[Dr Shroom]

Do you think they were happy to waste that money backing an IP that gained them nothing? Do you think that because they're Nintendo and they have money, they have no problem throwing it away?

If they were that kind of company, they really WOULD be broke.

They will never publicly admit backing Bayonetta 2 was a dumb idea. But it was.

I was talking about Platinum.

 

[SonGohan]

I suppose a Niche product, and a product with a dedicated cult following, but lacking in mainstream profitability are different, but they aren't that different.

Besides I was talking about Kickstarter in general. The only appreciable difference between Kickstarter and NGDEV preorders is scale.

It's completely different. You're trying to draw similarities between two completely different situations by finding a single common thing that means two very different things in each case.

Did you really mean Shenmue III's Kickstarter exclusively when you said it was a glorified pre-order and you are guaranteed nothing? Because technically your argument of "you are guaranteed nothing" applies more to NGDEV than Shenmue III here, specifically because of Shenmue IIIs larger fan base and backing.

I'm not sure how you're confusing the difference in what I'm talking about. Kickstarter is a risk for all the backers, and it doesn't need to be in Shenmue's case. Your dick is hard over NGDEV and I'm not sure why. Are they back by a major corporation, too?

You're basing that on the idea that Sony should believe in, or does believe in a historically money losing franchise enough to invest in it.

This likely is the only way this game get's made. A Kickstarter to prove to investors like Sony that they will get their money back. Sony gave it stage time, but they made no promises to fund it if the kickstarter failed.

Isn't that exactly what they're doing? They're investing money in a money losing franchise. They're already doing so, but without any sort of accountability. I mean, really, how would it be any different than Koji Igarashi putting up a Castlevania game on Kickstarter and finding out that Konami or some other big company was backing them?

You're looking at this from a business perspective --like you have shares in Sony or something. I'm looking at this from purely a consumer perspective. I like my purchases protected, and I like knowing exactly what I'm going to get. Kickstarter is a gamble that may or may not pay off (you won't find out until years later in many cases). I don't mind gambling on things, but will always choose not to if I don't have to.

My favorite Neo Geo game is Fatal Fury Special. I fucking love it. If I found out Eikichi Kawasaki was putting out a Kickstarter for an updated, completely hand-drawn HD version of the game, I would fund as much as I could. If I later found out that SNK was also backing him, I'd feel cheated. Why wouldn't the company produce the game like they've always done in the past? Your reasoning is that they need to see hard proof of a demand, but there are many other ways to prove demand that don't require holding onto my money for years. Big companies do it all the time.

Little companies, or even just a small group of guys don't have those resources, so Kickstarter really is the only option for them. Major corporations getting involved with sites like Kickstarter and Indiegogo (lol) is a bad thing. There's nothing you can say that would convince me otherwise.

Let me set this straight. I don't believe anybody will get ripped off in this Shenmue 3 Kickstarter. The problem I have with it (like I've already stated) is that it didn't need to happen. 2 million is a drop in the bucket for a game of this massive undertaking.

Fuck, I feel like a broken record, but there's some really stupid analogies being used and straight logic being deflected like it's herpes or something. I don't understand this shit. You guys WANT to buy games like this?

 

[Jonmkl]

It's completely different.

I disagree that the two are completely different, but that's fine. Also I'm not sure if the erection thing means I do or do not like NGDEV? Seems vague.

I'm saying Sony wouldn't fund this game without a Kickstarter because of the risk, and that it being on their stage from a third party developer in no way suggests that they have already agreed to do so. And if you are making a game that is fundamentally too big to kickstart, I don't think there is anything ethically wrong with getting starter funds from kickstarter and then using the publicity of the KS itself to acquire additional funding, as long as you're clear about it.

As I said before, you could say that Sony is scummy for doing it that way, and if it was Sony's decision you would pretty much be right, but they're a big corporation, what are you going to do? They look out for their bottom line, that's it.

And if it wasn't Sony's decision, and it's Suzuki wanting to do it via kickstarter, at least in the beginning, in order to maintain some creative control? More power to him, as long as he stays clear about his intentions.

I'm not deflecting any common sense, I was just questioning SOME of the things people were saying in the thread. Firstly that they already have Sony funding and they don't need a kickstarter, secondly that kickstarter is a stupid way to fund anything, and thirdly that stretch goals are stupid and if they wanted to add a feature into the game they would "just add it".

I don't even think we disagree for the most part, I only quoted your statement about no guarantees to point out that kickstarter the similar risks to many other things, such as NGDEV. And let's be clear, as far as we know, Sony has invested zero dollars in Shenmue, they merely used their platform to promote it. They even said it was Ys Net's project and not their's.

I personally don't think this project would get made without Kickstarter. Sony or no. That is all I'm saying.

 

[MadAsgardian]

Sony apparently has more Kickstarters in mind....
http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/17/an-intimate-chat-with-sony-playstation-shuhei-yoshida/

Are there other beloved cult titles we can expect to see Sony boost in terms of crowdfunding?

I don't know. Gio Corsi [director of third-party production and developer relations] is the guy working on that.

(Sony PlayStation PR: They're building a list.)

He also insinuates that they aren't actually funding the project, but of course the "journalist" doesn't press for clarification.

 

[Taiso]

I was talking about Platinum.

True enough. None of their games have been big hits despite being critically acclaimed and the niche market darlings of the industry.

Global Sales of Platinum Games (as of April 2015)

Madworld-.76 million
Infinite Space-.2 million
Bayonetta (PS3)-1.19 million
Bayonetta (360)-.91 million
Vanquish (PS3)-.6 million
Vanquish (360)-.41 million
Anarchy Reigns (PS3)-.19 million
Anarchy Reigns (360)-.15 million
Metal Gear Rising (PS3)-1.34 million
Metal Gear Rising (360)-.42 million
The Wonderful 101-.33 million
Bayonetta 2-.67 million

I couldn't even find numbers for Vanquish or MGR on PC, and couldn't find any numbers for Korra. And I only used VGchartz.

They aren't delivering the goods promised given their vaunted talent. Maybe they're not charging that much for their services? Even Platinum knows their sales suck. In this article from 2013, they acknowledged they aren't connecting with the market.

Again, great devs that make fun games that nobody cares about. At least the hype keeps them relevant.

 

[DNSDies]

I have no problem with Sony backing the Shenmue III KS with the Lion's Share of funding and using KS to gauge interest since they made it public knowledge within a day or two.

This allows plenty of time for people who backed to pull out if they disagree with it.

Scummy, to me, would be withholding that information until well after funding was complete and there is no easy way to back out (I'm looking at you, Mighty No. 9).

As long as they're public with that information, what's the hassle? You know what this is, and you can choose to pre-purchase or donate. It's your money.

It seems to me that Sony has a deal with YS about how much they back in relation to how many people back the KS and how much money it generates to start them off on development. Like, maybe they match funds to the Kickstarter, with bonuses for every million USD it generates.
There's probably a formula. I'd be interested to know it, but they're not likely to share it.

Also, Taiso:
Steamspy can give you a rough idea of how many owners there are of any game on steam:
http://steamspy.com/app/235460

MG:R is about 400k, give or take.

It's not super accurate, but it's a decent low ballpark.

edit:
Has anyone seen the price hike madness on Ebay for copies of Shenmue 1 and 2? $90 to $120!!!

I bought my copies both like 2-5 months ago for $15-$20!
I see a person already asking for a copy on the everything else sale forums.

 

[Hikaru Ichijyo]

I haven't committed yet but I will before the KS ends. I just plunked down for the Bloodstained KS and I'm feeling a bit of KS fatigue but I'm sure I'll go for the physical release (and like a lot of people I'd prefer a PS4 physical over a PC one but I'll take what I can get).

 

[Hot Chocolate]

I was talking about Platinum.

Work for hire paychecks, Microsoft just threw money at them for a exclusive

 

[Vectorman0]

I can't believe people are supporting this. Don't get me wrong, as I have always wanted this series to continue, but I find this to be a ridiculous way for a videogame of this magnitude to come to fruition.

With people throwing money at these kinds of things, I'm afraid that five years from now we won't see anything outside of sports games and Call of Duty without some kind of crowdfunding initiative. I wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a crowdfunding site dedicated to videogames.

 

[GregN]

I never beat 'Mue II, I got too caught up playing Lucky Hit.

 

[Taiso]

I can't believe people are supporting this. Don't get me wrong, as I have always wanted this series to continue, but I find this to be a ridiculous way for a videogame of this magnitude to come to fruition.

With people throwing money at these kinds of things, I'm afraid that five years from now we won't see anything outside of sports games and Call of Duty without some kind of crowdfunding initiative. I wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a crowdfunding site dedicated to videogames.

A game of what magnitude, exactly?

Shenmue and Shemnue II were both commercial failures, propped up by a combination of three things:

1.) The series' quality despite any decent sales on a failed platform.
2.) The hype generated by the series' scope given the limited hardware.
3.) A very vocal niche fanbase.

The Shenmue games were expensive costly failures. The series has become a legend now due to a minority of people holding it up as some pillar of gaming godliness.

And yet, the numbers don't lie. And it's myopic as hell to think 'well now that it's on a Sony platform, it'll sell by the boatload.'

That's no guarantee. The LAST place you look to for validation of artistic quality is the internet, which is where most of Shenmue's legendary status has taken root.

Even if 'everyone you knew' was playing the games, the sales sucked ass and the games lost money.

So to say that Shenmue is a game of 'magnitude' is unsubstantiated. Before 'Snakes on a Plane' came out, you would have thought it'd make more money than Titanic because everyone on the internet loved it

And Machete.

And a bunch of other niche culture films that flopped.

Kickstarter was not the best way for Sony to hype this game, but given their current financial state, only someone ignorant of their financial situation would think, for a second, that Sony would just throw money at Yu Suzuki and Sega to make this game. None of those three entities has cash to burn making the internet happy.

I want this game and I want it to do well. But Shenmue's legend is disproportionate to its sales figures and (lack of ) profits. And the people that make these decisions, even when their console is on top of the industry, always look at the numbers.

 

[Earthquake24]

Suzuki had his AMA this past Friday. http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3ahcwf/i_am_yu_suzuki_new_posting/.. In regards to Shenmue 3, he expects the funding to be primarily from Kickstarter backers, not so much would be coming from Sony except in marketing, advertising and production of PS4 copies. One of the interesting bits from the AMA was this:



So, $5 million to do some things he's wanted to do with the game and $10 million to actually make it a "true open world" that the fans will want. As of today, it's short of just $3.5 million with 26 days to go but alot of fanbase is panicked because they believed Sony was funding it more than they said.

 

[Dr Shroom]

Ten mil won't happen.

 

[RevQuixo]

Ten mil won't happen.

Especially with the current, weak ass stretch goals.

 

[Taiso]

Suzuki had his AMA this past Friday. http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3ahcwf/i_am_yu_suzuki_new_posting/.. In regards to Shenmue 3, he expects the funding to be primarily from Kickstarter backers, not so much would be coming from Sony except in marketing, advertising and production of PS4 copies. One of the interesting bits from the AMA was this:

View attachment 26378

So, $5 million to do some things he's wanted to do with the game and $10 million to actually make it a "true open world" that the fans will want. As of today, it's short of just $3.5 million with 26 days to go but alot of fanbase is panicked because they believed Sony was funding it more than they said.

View attachment 26379

Further proving that Shenmue remains a niche interest and not nearly the 'sure fire hit' that its small and loving fanbase believes it to be.

 

[Hot Chocolate]

Further proving that Shenmue remains a niche interest and not nearly the 'sure fire hit' that its small and loving fanbase believes it to be.

Like with any sports team there's always that small portion of the fanbase that takes things to crazy awkward levels

 

[neo_mao]

Suzuki had his AMA this past Friday. http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3ahcwf/i_am_yu_suzuki_new_posting/.. In regards to Shenmue 3, he expects the funding to be primarily from Kickstarter backers, not so much would be coming from Sony except in marketing, advertising and production of PS4 copies. One of the interesting bits from the AMA was this:

View attachment 26378

So, $5 million to do some things he's wanted to do with the game and $10 million to actually make it a "true open world" that the fans will want. As of today, it's short of just $3.5 million with 26 days to go but alot of fanbase is panicked because they believed Sony was funding it more than they said.

View attachment 26379

Fucking bullshit and fuck this fucking game.

 

[WoodyXP]

Yu will receive funding elsewhere, otherwise doing a kickstarter for $2M would have been an idiotic waste of time.

If shit goes south I hope we can at least get an "Uwe Bol" Youtube rant out of him.

 

[Taiso]

Yu will receive funding elsewhere, otherwise doing a kickstarter for $2M would have been an idiotic waste of time.

If shit goes south I hope we can at least get an "Uwe Bol" Youtube rant out of him.

Maybe he can criticize Assassin's Creed, Madden and Call of Duty.

 

[Hot Chocolate]

Maybe he can criticize Assassin's Creed, Madden and Call of Duty.

If he calls Assassins Creed a mexican bitch it'll make my century

 

[Vectorman0]

A game of what magnitude, exactly?

Shenmue and Shemnue II were both commercial failures, propped up by a combination of three things:

1.) The series' quality despite any decent sales on a failed platform.
2.) The hype generated by the series' scope given the limited hardware.
3.) A very vocal niche fanbase.

The Shenmue games were expensive costly failures. The series has become a legend now due to a minority of people holding it up as some pillar of gaming godliness.

And yet, the numbers don't lie. And it's myopic as hell to think 'well now that it's on a Sony platform, it'll sell by the boatload.'

That's no guarantee. The LAST place you look to for validation of artistic quality is the internet, which is where most of Shenmue's legendary status has taken root.

Even if 'everyone you knew' was playing the games, the sales sucked ass and the games lost money.

So to say that Shenmue is a game of 'magnitude' is unsubstantiated. Before 'Snakes on a Plane' came out, you would have thought it'd make more money than Titanic because everyone on the internet loved it

And Machete.

And a bunch of other niche culture films that flopped.

Kickstarter was not the best way for Sony to hype this game, but given their current financial state, only someone ignorant of their financial situation would think, for a second, that Sony would just throw money at Yu Suzuki and Sega to make this game. None of those three entities has cash to burn making the internet happy.

I want this game and I want it to do well. But Shenmue's legend is disproportionate to its sales figures and (lack of ) profits. And the people that make these decisions, even when their console is on top of the industry, always look at the numbers.

A game of such magnitude that (before kickstarter) it would need a company to support its development. I don't really care how well games have done, or are projected to do. If a game can't happen the old fashioned way, maybe it wasn't meant to be. I still think hundreds of thousands in donations sets a dangerous precedent for things to come. Anyway, I'm not going to argue, I'm pretty set with my opinion.