9 Dead at Umpqua Community College, Oregon

[LoneSage]

never forget smokehouse's garden rabbit RIP in peace

 

[Chempop]

Who am I kidding, the boy could have just as easily built a bomb and blew up the girl’s entire family. We should be grateful he had access to a shotgun.

 

[cdamm]

I fully get the "something must be done"...but I ask what is "something"?

i tend to stay away from political talk, but i agree with a lot of the talk about making gun ownership as difficult as owning a car- which it is not, but comes with certain added security.
things like - liability insurance, inspections, safety/ responsible use classes, etc.. something like that wont do much, but it is a start towards adding responsibility and accountability to gun ownership.

I'm not a gun owner, it's not something i want or need in my life. I am however in support of the right to bear arms. I think some common sense laws could go a long way to making everyone (including gun owners) feel more safe and secure going forward.

 

[DNSDies]

But if it was locked up, how would the boy protect himself when the mandingos come to rape and pillage??
Isn稚 the point of owning guns for self defense the ability to use them in case of emergency.

Well if the gun was locked up the kid could have easily made a gun himself. It would be cheaper too...

 

[StevenK]

Ah...emotion based laws, regulations, and bans. Yes, the best way govern.

Well, you did just say...

Long story short...this just ins't an issue...it just seems like an issue because it's everywhere in the media. If they came out and said ".01% of all Americans will meet their end to a firearm this year." or even more true ".004% of all Americans will meet their end to a firearm crime/violence this year.", it wouldn't sound so scary.

The fact is...this is a very safe country to live in, all things considered. There's just too much control to gain by using fear against the masses.

...but insist you need a gun.

The chances of you ever needing a gun are infinitesimally small but you still own one. I know you've been over weight in the past, if we were going to go on statistics alone then the chance of you dying from a weight related disease will have dwarfed the chance of you needing to stop a murderer in your home, did you see the logic in this at the time and sell your gun until you had brought your weight down?

Point is not every decision is based on logic alone, we're not robots and statistics can't answer every problem, and also just because something isn't the main problem in life doesn't mean it should be ignored - we can address multiple issues at the same time.

 

[FilthyRear]

Well, now today it comes out that this guy was butthurt that he didnt have a gf, I'm sure among other things. Only logical solution would be to shoot up random people and then eat a bullet yourself, no?

Ban guns, don't ban guns - makes no fucking difference. Psychos are still going to get them and use them. The cycle will continue.

 

[smokehouse]

Better for who? You, or the girl who got her chest blown out with a 12gauge over petting a puppy?

Was that directed at me?

If so, by "better" I meant less stupid name calling and more actual discussion without the absolutes on both sides cluttering up the conversation.

never forget smokehouse's garden rabbit RIP in peace

LOL...that's pest control...that shit has to happen. I trapped/killed two raccoon last week that had been ripping up garbage cans all over the neighborhood.

i tend to stay away from political talk, but i agree with a lot of the talk about making gun ownership as difficult as owning a car- which it is not, but comes with certain added security.
things like - liability insurance, inspections, safety/ responsible use classes, etc.. something like that wont do much, but it is a start towards adding responsibility and accountability to gun ownership.

I'm not a gun owner, it's not something i want or need in my life. I am however in support of the right to bear arms. I think some common sense laws could go a long way to making everyone (including gun owners) feel more safe and secure going forward.

I fully agree there should be classes before you can have a license to own a firearm. Here in Illinois, you have to have something called a FOID to own/purchase a firearm. I used to disagree with this item, but now I actually support it. What Illinois does not require is a mandatory class to own one, which I think should happen. You have to take driver's ed, you should take a basic firearms course as well.

Insurance however? No. As a matter of fact, FUCK NO. Americans are already gouged enough by insurance companies. With the number of firearms used in crimes/injuries vs the ones that aren't...it is completely unfair to even being putting a monthly fee on such a thing. God only knows what they would gouge firearm owners...we're all gouged enough as it is.

To sum it up...here's what I honestly feel would help out:

-Eliminate person to person sales.

-License firearm owning like you do a driver's license (AKA Illinois FOID)

-Make a firearm safety course mandatory when getting that license, this includes range time. Like a driver's license, if you can't qualify, you don't get on that day. (Get your head out of your as and try again.)

-Put a term limit on that license (Illinois is now 10 years). You have to re-up every 10 years.

-Force state police to have an active database with other state and federal agencies for on the spot purchase background checks.

Now...is any of this going to happen? I doubt it. No, they'll just try to ban a magazine that holds more than 10 bullets, or "evil" features like a pistol grip, flash hider, or removable magazine. Because that works so well...

 

[DNSDies]

Need

There's that word again....

 

[Chempop]

Was that directed at me?

Yes it was directed at you. I keep hearing a contradiction about safe gun ownership. For those who own firearms for self defense, but then claim guns should be locked up and out of children’s reach. Well how exactly can you defend yourself in an emergency when your gun is locked up and bullets are locked up in a separate box. You going to ask the criminal who is busting down your door to give you 3 minutes before they enter your house?

 

[smokehouse]

Well, you did just say...



...but insist you need a gun.

The chances of you ever needing a gun are infinitesimally small but you still own one. I know you've been over weight in the past, if we were going to go on statistics alone then the chance of you dying from a weight related disease will have dwarfed the chance of you needing to stop a murderer in your home, did you see the logic in this at the time and sell your gun until you had brought your weight down?

Point is not every decision is based on logic alone, we're not robots and statistics can't answer every problem, and also just because something isn't the main problem in life doesn't mean it should be ignored - we can address multiple issues at the same time.

First off, you're comparing apples and oranges. Laws being made on emotions -vs- me using my own emotions concerning how I govern my own life are 100% not comparable. One is mass scale law...the other is inside my 4 walls. Not even close to being the same. Laws need to be made on facts, not emotions. I don't give a shit if you don't like something, it should be banned. If it causes mass issues...then maybe. Firearms do not cause "mass" issues, like I said earlier, 30,000 out of 320,000,000 is nothing close to the word "mass". .01% of anything doesn't qualify as "mass". Real mass issues? Yeah...our government pretty much stays out of that shit, as they should concerning firearms. Like I said pages ago...you do not see our president taking to the podium every time 10 lives are needlessly lost, just when it concerns guns. Honestly, this is the base of my beef...if we got to hear of every tragic, avoidable death daily...perhaps I would care so much when guns were thrown in the mix. But we don't...guns just make for exciting news to report.

Now...on to your questions about me personally (if you even care).

I love sport shooting...I really do. Years ago, I spent too much time doing it and not enough focus on my health. When I began to feel mortal, I changed that. I now go shooting probably 10-12 times a year max. I sold of much of the firearms I had and keep the rest for various reasons. Of the few I own, the only one I despise shooting is my shotgun. I'll gladly admit that the primary reason I own it is if the need should ever happen that I need to hunt or defend myself with it.

My firearms spend 99% of their life locked in a safe. They do not hurt anyone, they cost me no money, or time to exist in that sate (unlike the $1200/mo I spend on home, life, auto, and health insurance). of everything I spend money on...firearms is damn near at the bottom of that list, especially when I do not shoot much.

 

[norton9478]

Now...is any of this going to happen? I doubt it. No, they'll just try to ban a magazine that holds more than 10 bullets, or "evil" features like a pistol grip, flash hider, or removable magazine. Because that works so well...

Limiting magazine capacity is one the few things that would probably have an effect on the the number of casualties in mass shootings.

That being said, the primary aim of restrictions on gun access should not be related to mass shootings. It should be to reduce the many other types of firearm deaths and injuries.

 

[smokehouse]

Yes it was directed at you. I keep hearing a contradiction about safe gun ownership. For those who own firearms for self defense, but then claim guns should be locked up and out of children’s reach. Well how exactly can you defend yourself in an emergency when your gun is locked up and bullets are locked up in a separate box. You going to ask the criminal who is busting down your door to give you 3 minutes before they enter your house?

Again...you really want to know this? I'll answer.

I have no plan to shoot a home intruder. We sleep on the second floor of my home, there is only one entrance to that are through a locked door which cannot be kicked in. It would have to be literally destroyed to gain access. So...in the uber rare case I do have a home intruder...they can take what they want and leave, a vast, VAST majority of them only want my shit, not me (and that's in the extremely rare case of a home intrusion). Letting someone take my shit is a far better reality than killing someone in my home.

For the fun of it, let's say I have the infinitely rare "terminator" that want's to kick my shit down and rape my family...ok, I have a pump shotgun for that by my bed. But I digress...that just isn't going to happen.

I told you (and others), I have much of what I have for riot control...not the police, not peacetime thugs...in the rare (and hopefully never) situation that WROL truly happens (which it can and it does).

Now, before you begin comparing my shotgun under the mattress situation to that absurd story you just linked...let me make something abundantly clear, I do not care about that story. One psychopath kid killing another in an extremely isolated event due to a long series to stupid parental mistakes is not something I would use to change how I govern my life. If I changed my life in reaction to how some stupid piece of trash acted...there would be no end to it.

 

[DNSDies]

Limiting magazine capacity is one the few things that would probably have an effect on the the number of casualties in mass shootings.

Right, because that 1-2 second gap between magazines is going to make the biggest difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-6jXQ3FE4o

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feinstein_AK_Mag

I fucking love 3D Printers!

 

[Chempop]

...ok, I have a pump shotgun for that by my bed. But I digress...that just isn't going to happen.

Not going to happen, but you still have a shotgun by the bed. Got it.
So you are, and perhaps a large percentage of shotgun (self defense!!) owners are pro-accesability when it comes to it. I was just wondering, thanks for answering.

 

[FilthyRear]

Yes it was directed at you. I keep hearing a contradiction about safe gun ownership. For those who own firearms for self defense, but then claim guns should be locked up and out of children’s reach. Well how exactly can you defend yourself in an emergency when your gun is locked up and bullets are locked up in a separate box. You going to ask the criminal who is busting down your door to give you 3 minutes before they enter your house?

This.

What the fuck is the point of having it for protection if you can't readily get access to it? Keep the clip out (but loaded) in a seperate spot in the same cabinet/shelf.

 

[Opethian]

 

[norton9478]

Right, because that 1-2 second gap between magazines is going to make the biggest difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-6jXQ3FE4o

Yes it does make a difference.

And the time is more than 1-2 seconds. It takes dedication and training to change ammo in such a short time. And then during an actual situation, things go differently than in practice due to stress/excitement/etc.

Any time a person changes ammo, it gives an opportunity.

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feinstein_AK_Mag

I fucking love 3D Printers!

3d Printing is not commercial quality. If someone was shooting up my place of biz with a high capacity magazine, I'd hope it is a 3D printed one.

That being said, it is an extra step. You have to get access to a 3D printer. Either you spend $3000 and 100 hours learning to use one. Or you do it on someone else's where people see you printing a magazine.

You are still better off trying to obtain a large capacity illegally. And doing so takes work and risks getting caught.

Regarding Sandy Hook we know two things.
1. The shooter would not have had access to high capacity magazines had they been illegal.
2. It is widely suspected that children escaped while he had trouble reloading.

There have been several other shooting incidents that stopped while the shooter was reloading.

 

[StevenK]

First off, you're comparing apples and oranges. Laws being made on emotions -vs- me using my own emotions concerning how I govern my own life are 100% not comparable. One is mass scale law...the other is inside my 4 walls. Not even close to being the same. Laws need to be made on facts, not emotions. I don't give a shit if you don't like something, it should be banned. If it causes mass issues...then maybe. Firearms do not cause "mass" issues, like I said earlier, 30,000 out of 320,000,000 is nothing close to the word "mass". .01% of anything doesn't qualify as "mass". Real mass issues? Yeah...our government pretty much stays out of that shit, as they should concerning firearms. Like I said pages ago...you do not see our president taking to the podium every time 10 lives are needlessly lost, just when it concerns guns. Honestly, this is the base of my beef...if we got to hear of every tragic, avoidable death daily...perhaps I would care so much when guns were thrown in the mix. But we don't...guns just make for exciting news to report.

Now...on to your questions about me personally (if you even care).

I love sport shooting...I really do. Years ago, I spent too much time doing it and not enough focus on my health. When I began to feel mortal, I changed that. I now go shooting probably 10-12 times a year max. I sold of much of the firearms I had and keep the rest for various reasons. Of the few I own, the only one I despise shooting is my shotgun. I'll gladly admit that the primary reason I own it is if the need should ever happen that I need to hunt or defend myself with it.

My firearms spend 99% of their life locked in a safe. They do not hurt anyone, they cost me no money, or time to exist in that sate (unlike the $1200/mo I spend on home, life, auto, and health insurance). of everything I spend money on...firearms is damn near at the bottom of that list, especially when I do not shoot much.

Laws are brought in by governments elected by people based almost exclusively on emotions (I've watched a few US presidential campaigns, facts have never had less to do with a process). You can't separate emotions and people, no matter how much you would like to. Think of it this way, what was the particular chart you saw that finalised your decision to vote in the last election?

What's the legal drinking age where you live? What facts did they use to get to that number? What facts did they use to decide the mandatory sentence for DUI charges? Age of consent? Etc etc, emotions emotions emotions.

Regarding the issue of firearms deaths being in the media, consider similar statistics for deaths. Take poisoning for instance, circa 50,000. Bottles are clearly labelled as dangerous and these rules have tightened since we were kids. Child proof lids are now prevalent across the board.

Another one, motor vehicle deaths, circa 35k deaths a year. Seat belts, speed humps, air bags, drink driving laws tightening etc etc, the list goes on with this one.

Across the board rules tighten, ideas are implemented, problems are targeted, things get better.

The thing that gets to you most - that every time a mass shooting happens it ends up on the news when something like an accidental poisoning doesn't, is because unlike pretty much every other cause of death the media can guarantee that there will be a huge shit storm from a group of people who are staunchly AGAINST making the situation better. That is the only difference. And arguments make great entertainment.

How many posts do you think this thread would have if it was about a car crash that killed fifteen people?

 

[norton9478]

This.

What the fuck is the point of having it for protection if you can't readily get access to it? Keep the clip out (but loaded) in a seperate spot in the same cabinet/shelf.

I guess that this "solution" is slightly more responsible than leaving a loaded gun around a child occupied home. But not much.


Anyways what you should be asking is: What is the point of having a gun if it is more likely to result in the death of a family member/guest than prevent such an incident? Because that is what you are essentially doing by having a gun you hour house. Increasing the likelihood that a resident/guest will die a violent death.

There are several ways to mitigate this, most of them involve things that run counter to your idea of "immediate home protection".

 

[Mac91]

Easy way to solve people trespassing on your property that doesn't involve guns: build and subsequently move into Spencer Mansion. Problemo solved.

 

[DNSDies]

Well how exactly can you defend yourself in an emergency when your gun is locked up and bullets are locked up in a separate box.

Nobody said anything about keeping it locked up separately, unloaded, or being difficult for an adult to open in an emergency situation.

There are dozens, if not hundreds of great gun safes and vaults that can deny casual access to your guns, but still allow you access to it with only an additional 3-5 seconds of time.

Biometric locks, for example, mean you don't have to fiddle with combinations or keys when you hear a window smash. You're locking up the gun when you have children because children cannot be trusted 100% to do what you tell them to. You're sacrificing some convenience and a few seconds of time to prevent an impulsive child from playing with your firearm. It's risk vs reward.

There's nothing contradictory to this at all, and it feels like you're twisting an argument to suit your agenda.

 

[Chempop]

There's nothing contradictory to this at all, and it feels like you're twisting an argument to suit your agenda.

It’s not contradictory at all! A member just admitted to having a bedside shotgun! LMAO, I’m waisting my time.

 

[norton9478]

People who have an unsecured, loaded gun because they "Might need it in a hurry" remind me of the people who refuse to wear seatbelts because they had a cousin's friend who supposedly died because of his seatbelt.

 

[DNSDies]

I have an unsecured, but unloaded rifle next to my bed, and a full magazine in my nightstand.
I'm ok with this because I DO NOT LIVE WITH CHILDREN, NOR HAVE VISITORS WITH CHILDREN.
In the event I expect one, I have a cable lock that will prevent it from being usable, and I can lock the room.

If you don't have children in your home, you don't need to lock it up. Do you even have any kids, Smoke?

 

[smokehouse]

I expected ridicule for my shotgun remark...but it's the truth and in full disclosure if I do not tell the truth, what's the point of doing this in the first place?

If you want to poke fun at me for having it...fine. Personally, I do not resort to being a horse's ass to make a point, but if you want to call me names for doing it, fire away.

That thing has sat there for years and not once caused a problem, I strongly doubt it ever will.

I could go into gory details about how the thing works, how most adults (save seasoned shooters), would have a difficult time figuring out how to load and cycle the thing (let alone children doing that), how much time I've spent with my child concerning firearm safety, my decades of firearm training and shooting experience, or even how few people in my "real" life even know I own firearms...but I doubt it would make any difference.

Nope...many of you are, simply put, prejudice against firearms owners. No matter what they say, you will resort to insults and idiotic assumptions about that individual. Enjoy that...it's comfy to feel superior to someone based on prejudice and you're definitely not alone.