Guns and the Gabrielle Giffords shooting.

NeoTheranthrope

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(Making a new thread as not to potentially shit up the other thread over a contentious issue.)


First off, I'll start by saying: when parsing the sentence "a dangerous nut with a gun" the "nut" makes the "gun" dangerous, not he other way around. The gun didn't do anything, it's a thing, an object, a tool. It doesn't have will, or ambitions, or motivations, the nut does.


The thing is, due to the emotional impact of the the attack, politicians will feel the need to do SOMETHING (or not, to be perceived as not doing NOTHING by their respective constituents), and since we cant ban nuts there will be ban (or further restrict) the next thing: guns.

(also: guns is SCARY)
 

OMFG

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(Making a new thread as not to potentially shit up the other thread over a contentious issue.)


First off, I'll start by saying: when parsing the sentence "a dangerous nut with a gun" the "nut" makes the "gun" dangerous, not he other way around. The gun didn't do anything, it's a thing, an object, a tool. It doesn't have will, or ambitions, or motivations, the nut does.


The thing is, due to the emotional impact of the the attack, politicians will feel the need to do SOMETHING (or not, to be perceived as not doing NOTHING by their respective constituents), and since we cant ban nuts there will be ban (or further restrict) the next thing: guns.

(also: guns is SCARY)

Why are guns SCARY to you?
 
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The thing is, due to the emotional impact of the the attack, politicians will detect the opportunity to do SOMETHING (or not, to be perceived as not doing NOTHING by their respective constituents), and since we cant ban nuts there will be ban (or further restrict) the next thing: guns.

Fixed.
 

SML

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I don't like guns, but there's lots of things I don't like. I like gun restrictions even less than I like guns.
 

Orpheus

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I understand when people say that guns don't kill people, people kill people.
That still doesn't mean that they don' throw feul on the fire.
A gun in a pussies or mentally unstable/irrational persons hands makes them all the more willing and capable to let loose in a way that they would not with thier bare hands (or a knife, club, etc).

I'm not defending/condoning/chastising gun laws or restrictions. just pointing out that guns in the hands of the wrong individuals can and do lead to situations that would not happen, let alone be possible, without them (particuarly this one).
In this instance a person killed people....with a semi-automatic gun.

At the end of the day it's not really the "vitrol" (whatever the fuck that buzz word is about) that caused this (it doesn't help). This is the result of what you get by both shady parties playing thier sick game of pitting the red against the blue like it's a god damn soap opera. At some point things are going to get out of hand.
 

norton9478

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Guns don't kill people, People kill people.

If you take our guns away, people will just use other things like Rope, Knives, Bare Knuckles.

The tragedy in Tuscon would have ended up just the same.
 

Average Joe

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The tragedy in Tuscon would have ended up just the same.

just the same in that people would have been hurt/killed

not the same in that as many would have been hurt/killed

the ease of use and power trip effect guns can have on people are unrivaled

people will always find ways to kill other people, it's just comes down to technology allowing them to do it more efficiently
 

norton9478

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just the same in that people would have been hurt/killed

not the same in that as many would have been hurt/killed

the ease of use and power trip effect guns can have on people are unrivaled

people will always find ways to kill other people, it's just comes down to technology allowing them to do it more efficiently

I just know what I'm told.

But I'm also told that you could take on 3 nun-chuck wielding thugs.
 

Marek

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We would see a huge rise in CO2 powered 'guns' if they made combustion bullet/shell guns too hard to get at.

Poison darts, tranq darts perhaps with lethal overdoses in them, fucking explosives arent going anywhere etc.

I dont think anyone can say how things would have gone if he had used another means to injure rather than guns.
 

lithy

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I'm making a leap, but it seems like no one at this rally was in possession of a firearm.
 

Kristian Meller

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Guns don't kill people, People kill people.

If you take our guns away, people will just use other things like Rope, Knives, Bare Knuckles.

The tragedy in Tuscon would have ended up just the same.

I'm sensing some sarcasm at work here.
 

lithy

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There were those at the shooting who were CCW'ing.

Interesting, any stories anywhere about who these people are and why they didn't use their weapon? Just curious, since I believe you do need to be fully confident before firing, but you how many people get shot before you might decide to draw?
 

SML

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Interesting, any stories anywhere about who these people are and why they didn't use their weapon? Just curious, since I believe you do need to be fully confident before firing, but you how many people get shot before you might decide to draw?

It would take me a very long time before I was confident people weren't going to mistake me for a second shooter.

And shoot me.

I don't want to die, lithy.

Not like that.

:(
 

LoneSage

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It would take me a very long time before I was confident people weren't going to mistake me for a second shooter.

And shoot me.

I don't want to die, lithy.

Not like that.

:(

Can't believe I've never considered that before. Good point.
 

Lagduf

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It would take me a very long time before I was confident people weren't going to mistake me for a second shooter.

And shoot me.

I don't want to die, lithy.

Not like that.

:(

From what I've heard that was a concern for one armed man who was in the vicinity of the shooting (he heard the shooting while shopping) but didn't see it go down. He didn't want to be seen as a second shooter and the shooter was taken down before he would have been able to respond anyway.

I'll have to do some fact checking cuz I can't remember all the details but another guy at the rally had a gun but didn't have a clean shot since people were running everywhere and it was pretty confusing.

Eitherway those brave citizens took down the shooter before anyone with a gun could shoot back, which was probably for the better. I can only imagine how wonderful a gun battle would have been. I bet the shooter would have lost though.
 

norton9478

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That's pretty much it.... If shots ring out.... The last thing I want to be is a guy holding a gun.
 
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lithy

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That's pretty much it.... If shots ring out.... The last thing I want to be is a guy holding a gun.

I dunno, I think by the time you get to shooting three or more people...

My view is, you won't stop the first one, and probably not the second one, and even if you could you may not want to, these killings may be personal and you could put yourself in danger when the gunman is only after a couple select targets.

By the time you get to three or more people you could reasonably react and judge that this is not a simple personal killing and I guess this might sound dumb but is it better for you to shoot and possibly be mistaken for another shooter (but who would shoot you? Nobody else seems to be firing at this point either) or to let nutcase mcgee shoot another 15 people.

Now, not having a clear shot is another issue entirely. Also, being put in this situation is again an entirely different thing as well. Impossible to prepare yourself for what you would actually do. So this is all just conjecture on my part, take it for what you will and suggest I would turn ass and run. Anything is possible.
 

Lagduf

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I'd buy some of those 33 round G18 magazines but they're too expensive. They're a lot of fun though :emb:

I'm building an AK74 in march :emb::emb:
 

Zero Satori

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A gun in a pussies or mentally unstable/irrational persons hands makes them all the more willing and capable to let loose in a way that they would not with thier bare hands (or a knife, club, etc).
The sad thing about it is that an American who kills a person with a firearm is very likely to get less jail-time than someone who repeatedly stabbed or beat a person's skull to collapse. So even if there's an up-side to not using a firearm, the likelihood is high of courts going extra-vicious on someone because they used a "barbaric" weapon which requires physical force and multiple strikes.
 

smokehouse

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Here's some indisputable facts...

-In the US...possession of many controlled substances is illegal...

-In the US possession of an unregistered firearm is illegal...


Does this stop anything? No...both of these things are readily available to those that are willing to break the law...which brings me to another FACT

The definition of criminal is:

"someone who has committed a crime or has been legally convicted of a crime."

The definition of crime is:

"Crime is the breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority (via mechanisms such as legal systems) can ultimately prescribe a conviction.'

Now...if a criminal is someone who commits a crime and crime is breaking the law........


...wait for it....


Why in the name of holy fuck would someone who is a criminal give a shit about gun laws?


The very simple answer is they don't. Gun laws only restrict law abiding citizens...thinking they will "make it tougher" for criminals is a fucking joke...do drug laws make it tougher for addicts to get drugs? Slightly but will they get them anyway? Yup. If there is a will, there is a way...a psychopath that is determined will find a way to get a gun no matter how tough the law is...even if they are banned completely...



Here's another fact...people have been killing each other since the days jesus Christ walked the earth and in mass #'s...well before any gun was invented. To add to that, for most of the time there has been civilization, there have been laws against murder.

Has this ever stopped it?

not in the slightest.

You ban guns, a psycho will plant a bomb...you ban bombs, they will simply burn their victim's their house down...or strangle them...or whatever...they will find a way to kill no matter how "tough" you make it on them. If someone is willing to murder...a secondary penalty for using an illegal firearm is the least of their worries, let me guarantee you that.

Lastly, I'm sorry but 9-10 dead does not constitute "mass" in my book anyway...100 is mass and it's fucking hard for anyone, gun or no to kill that many that quick without a bomb of some sort...



Banning firearms will only remove them from the hands of law abiding citizens...period.

The most disgusting thing is that the same fucking politicians pop out of hiding to jump on killings like this every time it happens, it's deplorable. They couldn't give two shits less about what happened, they just want to make an opportunity out of it. To use a senseless public killing as fuel for an agenda is horrible...if it had my 9 year old daughter that was killed like that I would be on TV screaming at these opportunistic fuckwads to stop using my child as a reason to push their political agenda.








Now, on to other things...

If I were there and packing I'd hate to admit it but I wouldn't have drawn either...like others said, any civilian in that immediate area with a gun at the moment was an attacker in the eyes of everyone else, including and cops or bodyguards.

This also helps to disprove that oh so coined phrase "old west shootout" anti gun morons are always claiming will happen in a situation like this...it simply doesn't happen.
 

galfordo

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supposedly the guy CCW'ing was too late to the scene, by the time he got there someone else besides jared was carrying the gun

he wasn't sure who the guy was so he didn't fire on him, instead opting to slam him against the wall until the guy identified himself

a little harsh sure, but overall a very sensible response without placing people in further danger

too bad the guy was too late
 

smokehouse

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One other thing...I got into a "need" conversation with a co worker today...

He simply stated "why would anyone need a magazine that can hold 30 bullets?"

I replied with "why does anyone need a car that can go over the speed limit? Why does anyone need to eat 4500 calories in one sitting at a fast food restaurant? See, these two things combined kill more citizens in a year than firearms kill in ten."

He just sat here looking at me strangely and replied "Well...you're no better than the ones who want to ban guns then..."

I interrupted him with "No, no I'm not. I don't think fast cars or shitty food should be banned...I'm saying that the "do you really need xxxxxx, then it should be banned" conversation goes down a dangerous road. Guns are just an easy target."

He subtly changed the subject...
 
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