Missouri gun murders 'rose after law repeal'

norton9478

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So you don't think America has a problem with the gun culture?

There was nothing political about what he said.

But anyways, go on clinging to your guns and your fear.
 
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OrochiEddie

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So you don't think America has a problem with the gun culture?

There was nothing political about what he said.

But anyways, go on clinging to your guns and your fear.
I think the gun moderates are unfortunately way too quiet to help provide a more balanced view to anti-gun people.

Our view of the warped gun-culture is shaped by the loud radicals and fringe individuals.

The "get rid of all the guns" idea is far too radical of a paradigm shift within the culture to ever be considered at the present state.

That argument is just as radical and will fall on deaf ears.

The goal is how do you find a balance between the two ideas.


That or just endlessly bicker on the internet.
 
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galfordo

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So you don't think America has a problem with the gun culture?

There was nothing political about what he said.

But anyways, go on clinging to your guns and your fear.

the presence of absence of guns makes no difference, sorry norton

decreasing poverty and inequality would go much further toward reducing violence
 

smokehouse

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So you don't think America has a problem with the gun culture?

There was nothing political about what he said.

But anyways, go on clinging to your guns and your fear.

And the insults fly...I especially love the tired and boring "clutching your guns in fear" comment...so original, so well thought out...

*high-school-chess-tournament-clap*

Something is never "political" if the person speaking is saying something you already agree with. If his out of place nonsense is right up your alley...great. It apparently was in poor taste to the hundreds of thousands or more that bitched to no end about his poor timing.

Lastly, the term "gun culture" itself is a political, anti-rights coined term. There is no "gun culture"....there is no "assault weapon", there is no "high capacity clip"...they're just made up terms to give people like you a bobby boy some neato things to insult firearm owners with.



Let me tell you this...you obviously see yourself as calm and enlightened and are in favor of the government removing my rights because you do not agree with them.........it would be sad and ironic if a freedom you feel strongly about is next on the chopping block.
 

norton9478

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As I stated before, I actually think we should abolish all gun laws (including prohibition against felons who have completed sentences). Not necessarily because I think it will make us "safer" or because of the second amendment. Just because of natural rights.

I don't have to believe the Gun Lobby's Bullshit in order to think that guns shouldn't be outlawed.

But to every "Gun Enthusiast" (since I guess "gun culture" is supposedly a bad word or something), I want to take away their precious guns. Because for such rubes, It is impossible to analyze the facts in and still come to a conclusion based on Ideology.


the presence of absence of guns makes no difference, sorry norton
Every study on the subject is inconclusive at best.

decreasing poverty and inequality would go much further toward reducing violence
I agree.
But people getting rid of guns will reduce Murders too.

Why is it so hard for people to admit that more guns leads to more deaths?
 
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OrochiEddie

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the presence of absence of guns makes no difference, sorry norton

decreasing poverty and inequality would go much further toward reducing violence

Communists for the end of gun violence!
 

galfordo

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I agree.
But people getting rid of guns will reduce Murders too.

Why is it so hard for people to admit that more guns leads to more deaths?

This is why it's so hard:
Every study on the subject is inconclusive at best.

Restricting rights based on inconclusive studies is a poor way to accomplish ... well, anything really
 

norton9478

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If there is no such thing as "Gun Culture" then what the fuck do I see on Television and in movies all the time?
 

norton9478

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This is why it's so hard:


Restricting rights based on inconclusive studies is a poor way to accomplish ... well, anything really
"at best", from the Gun Lobby's point of view.
 

smokehouse

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If there is no such thing as "Gun Culture" then what the fuck do I see on Television and in movies all the time?

Television and movies are fake, forced and absolutely fake...come on man, you are smart enough to know that (and yes, I mean that).

Do you know how many foreigners I've met that are surprised and how "normal" most Americans are? I cannot count how many times I've heard that they are surprised due to watching American television and movies and it painting a completely different picture of us. Most average Americans go about their daily lives quietly and peacefully. The vast majority to be exact. The polar opposite of how TV and Movies claim we are.

TV and movies are FAKE...they paint a picture of us that simply isn't real.

You know the second question I get asked? "Were are all the black Americans?" (Yes, I deal with quite a few foreigners)

Again...watch American TV and it paints a picture that a larger portion of our population is black...which it isn't (looks to be around 13% at the moment).

I live smack dab in the middle of blue collar America...most around here own guns, take place in shooting competitions and hunt...but it 100% not a "culture". A gun, like a knife, bat, wrench, screwdriver, bike, truck or fishing pole is a tool...not a culture.

No, what we have as Americans is a culture of violence...but that doesn't put the blame on an inanimate object like politicians want so we gloss over that part and go right on blaming items for our nasty ways.
 
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Lagduf

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As I stated before, I actually think we should abolish all gun laws (including prohibition against felons who have completed sentences). Not necessarily because I think it will make us "safer" or because of the second amendment. Just because of natural rights.

I don't have to believe the Gun Lobby's Bullshit in order to think that guns shouldn't be outlawed.

But to every "Gun Enthusiast" (since I guess "gun culture" is supposedly a bad word or something), I want to take away their precious guns. Because for such rubes, It is impossible to analyze the facts in and still come to a conclusion based on Ideology.



Every study on the subject is inconclusive at best.


I agree.
But people getting rid of guns will reduce Murders too.

Why is it so hard for people to admit that more guns leads to more deaths?

I agree that the right to have access to defensive arms far outweighs any negative aspects of arms ownership such as an increase in intended and unintended deaths.

It's a bitter pill for some to swallow.
 
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norton9478

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You know the second question I get asked? "Were are all the black Americans?" (Yes, I deal with quite a few foreigners)

Again...watch American TV and it paints a picture that a larger portion of our population is black...which it isn't (looks to be around 13% at the moment).

I don't suspect that any serious analysis of Television Characters will find blacks being overrepresented. Especially not when you account for age. It certainly isn't true regarding main characters.

I poked around and most of what I could find was African American characters in the high teens. But less representation for Latinos and Asians.



I live smack dab in the middle of blue collar America...most around here own guns, take place in shooting competitions and hunt...but it 100% not a "culture". A gun, like a knife, bat, wrench, screwdriver, bike, truck or fishing pole is a tool...not a culture.

So someone who enjoys playing video games, Bullshiting about them online, in person and especially at conventions isn't part of the Gamer Culture?

No, what we have as Americans is a culture of violence...but that doesn't put the blame on an inanimate object like politicians want so we gloss over that part and go right on blaming items for our nasty ways.

I'm not assigning blame. Just putting together the facts.

Could you please clarify this for me?
Every study I see either says More guns=More Violence or is inconclusive.
 
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evil wasabi

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the presence of absence of guns makes no difference, sorry norton

decreasing poverty and inequality would go much further toward reducing violence


I agree with this. I don't see why liberals are so loathe to the idea of decreasing poverty and increasing education for the poor to become more integrated into society. It's really odd.
 

evil wasabi

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Screw driver culture. It'll happen when people run out of shit to crusade against.
 

smokehouse

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I don't suspect that any serious analysis of Television Characters will find blacks being overrepresented. Especially not when you account for age. It certainly isn't true regarding main characters.

I poked around and most of what I could find was African American characters in the high teens. But less representation for Latinos and Asians.





So someone who enjoys playing video games, Bullshiting about them online, in person and especially at conventions isn't part of the Gamer Culture?



I'm not assigning blame. Just putting together the facts.


Every study I see either says More guns=More Violence or is inconclusive.

Bullshit…you turn on a TV and see a flood of stories on racism or race issues, turn on MTV and look at the bulk of the programming, watch professional sports and see who plays them, look at channels like Bounce or BET, look at our movies and who is represented in them. If you had never visited the US, you'd swear 50% of the population was black based simply on media. I'm not saying I have a beef with television or movies aimed at black American culture…but to say they are not represented more in the media than you think a group making up less than >15% of the populous would be…you're wrong. I spend quite a bit of time with foreigners that come overseas to work here for Cat…and I'm not lying when I say this question has come up many times.

You mention "gamer culture"…not "controller culture" or "console culture". "hunting culture", "sport shooting culture", "survivalist culture"…sure, these are rich cultures in this (and many other countries) that have been around for ages. In these cultures the gun is a part…as it is a necessary tool for the activity at hand. I won't deny there are gun nuts out there…but that is hardly a culture.

Again though..."gun culture"? No. I said it before and I'll say it again…a gun is a tool or an item, not a culture. This is a fabricated word made to sound dirty…"gun culture" implies criminal activity, hurting someone, murder . The people using terms like that cannot say "violence culture" or "murder culture" because it doesn't properly place the blame or focus on guns...


You have to understand…these people, these activists like Bobby boy chose their words carefully. Look at "assault weapon"…it is a 100% manufactured term with no set meaning or definition. Oh boy does it sound scary through doesn't it? Do you think the common day to day joe came up with this word? No, politicians and those seeking to ban firearms dreamt it up and pushed it in the late 80's and look at the impact it has had. (don't believe me? look up the 1988 book "Assault Weapons and Accessories in America") 20 years later and POW! Tons of people crying out for the banning of something using a fabricated word that there isn't even a hard definition of. Mission accomplished.

"Gun culture" is yet another…and forgive me if I pounced on that one but anyone spouting a fake, shitty, made up term with no real meaning pisses me off. If anyone wants to question my rights as a law abiding citizen, I prefer they come well informed and not referencing Bob Costas's stupid ass.
 
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mr aize

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what we have as Americans is a culture of violence...but that doesn't put the blame on an inanimate object like politicians want so we gloss over that part and go right on blaming items for our nasty ways.

Interesting point and one I tend to agree with. Politicians always push the quick fix because it's popular, people don't want to take a long hard look at themselves, it's unpleasant, so a career minded politician is never going to push the hard route.

I am definitely divided over the issue (of guns in the States, very very glad we don't have them freely available over here). I am finding it easier to see some things from your point, but I don't think I can ever be in agreement enough to believe free access to guns is a positive thing.

I find it amazing that the pro-gun people refuse to believe, or even consider, the argument that more guns = more death. I know someone's going to come along and quote some statistic to say that they don't but I'm afraid that won't wash with me, since I have yet to see a single study that takes into account all the other mitigating factors that can skew the results. I'm really not sure it would be possible to ever manage such a study because there are so many factors to consider, changes in economics, movements of people, random nutters, politicians even what's on tv...

So, how about I explain, as clearly as I can think, my anti-gun position and why I am firm in the belief that more guns=more death.

Guns were invented, to be the most efficient way of killing things, this is a fact correct?

Now picture a scenario, someone's angry enough to kill, they've got a gun, it's a very quick process, from the moment you pick it up, you only have to point and squeeze the trigger.

Now picture a second scenario, someone's angry enough to kill, they've got a knife, granted you can kill someone very quickly with a knife but it's not as easy as with a gun. The other person could fight back, you actually have to be up close to them to do it, someone is more likely to intervene. all these things can take longer and give you longer to calm down and actually think about what you're doing.

Now picture a third scenario, you just have your fists, don't think I have to go right through this one but obviously it is much harder to kill with your fists than with a gun.

Now I'm sure someone's going to bring up the argument that the idea that other people have guns stops people from using theirs/committing violent crimes. I'm afraid I'm not convinced by this one. It is not an easy thing to shoot someone, but all accounts and interviews with serial killers say that it gets easier. Now the bad guys will know this, since they've been through it so although it might be a bit of a consideration, I don't think it's the magic wand to defuse the bad guys that the pro-gun lobby claim it is. If you've got a gang member with a gun, who has used it in the past, trying to commit a home invasion. He will most likely be far more comfortable and ready to use his gun than the home owner is to use his, so the advantage is already with the bad guy.

Now having said all that, sadly I have to agree with the most persuasive argument against a gun ban, that all the bad guys are already armed. There are simply too many guns already in circulation for an effective ban to be enforced. Without some serious draconian moves by the authorities, the guns would remain in the hands of the bad guys and no longer in the hands of people defending their homes.

What it would do, however, is make another school massacre far less likely to happen. From all that I've read about them, none of the massacres have been committed by gang members or even people with an kind of serious criminal record. If there was a gun ban in place, it would be much harder for these people to get hold of the guns, in order to commit these massacres. Yes they could use a knife, and in other countries there are occasionally times when some psychotic goes on a stabbing rampage but the casualties are generally much lower because, as I stated earlier, it's a far less efficient way of killing people.


Now my final point, is one I know is going to be very unpopular so I'll probably get flamed for it but I'm afraid I simply don't think one of your core beliefs works in reality. The idea that all men are created equal and so are entitled to equal rights and have the freedom to exercise those rights absolutely. Whilst I fully support the ideology behind it, I'm not a Nazi, elitist or any other kind of biggot/zenophobe etc but the fact is that all men are not equal. Some are considerably smarter, some are more careless and some more prone to violence. This is from birth, factor in life experiences and you end up with killers and non-killers and those who kill by accident. By firmly clinging to the idea that all men are equal and so have an equal right to bear arms, you preclude the possibility of making it harder for the bad guys and the nutters in society to get the guns. The idea of a psychological profile, training/proficiency exam (like for a driving licence) etc before being allowed to own a gun would seem to me like very sensible things to implement but they are opposed because it is seen as infringing on a freedom. The fact is though, if you look at it completely objectively, it is a freedom that some people shouldn't have and that's indisputable. Ignore for a moment, how it is decided who is deemed safe to own a fire arm and surely anyone can see that allowing someone who is prone to violence, undergoing/undergone a psychological trauma or simply a bit thick/careless to own a firearm is a bad idea.
 
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whisper2053

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it is a freedom that some people shouldn't have and that's indisputable.

No.

I do not even have to address the rest of what you wrote...this snippit invalidates ALL of it. Smoke has (thus far now) several times mentioned this, and it has been casually dismissed each and every time it has come up.

The simple fact of the matter is that you cannot and will not do this. No.

Some people shouldn't have it? Awesome. Now we're sliding just a tad. How much further before that argument is used as the basis for the next revocation (free speech, right to assemble, etc) based on another group's adjudication that "they should not have that"? Now we're really sliding. Next, now that we have fully two sanctioned previous examples to fall back on, the next revocation becomes that much easier. And easier. Now things are really moving...that slope is looking mighty steep at this point. It just doesn't stop once the snowball starts rolling.

The caveat that "All Men Are Created Equal" is there for a reason. A very powerful and necessary one. Once you start picking and choosing who gets to exercise what 'rights' based on merit and/or political/religious/etc favoritism, the fight is well and truly lost. While there will always be some of that on individual levels in certain circumstances (corruption exists, no getting around it), the core principle is that it should not and can not be condoned. To disagree with that... *shakes head* ...there are substantially greater amounts of 'wrong' to address there.
 
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mr aize

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No.

I do not even have to address the rest of what you wrote...this snippit invalidates ALL of it. Smoke has (thus far now) several times mentioned this, and it has been casually dismissed each and every time it has come up.

The simple fact of the matter is that you cannot and will not do this. No.

Some people shouldn't have it? Awesome. Now we're sliding just a tad. How much further before that argument is used as the basis for the next revocation (free speech, right to assemble, etc) based on another group's adjudication that "they should not have that"? Now we're really sliding. Next, now that we have fully two sanctioned previous examples to fall back on, the next revocation becomes that much easier. And easier. Now things are really moving...that slope is looking mighty steep at this point. It just doesn't stop once the snowball starts rolling.

The caveat that "All Men Are Created Equal" is there for a reason. A very powerful and necessary one. Once you start picking and choosing who gets to exercise what 'rights' based on merit and/or political/religious/etc favoritism, the fight is well and truly lost. While there will always be some of that on individual levels in certain circumstances (corruption exists, no getting around it), the core principle is that it should not and can not be condoned. To disagree with that... *shakes head* ...there are substantially greater amounts of 'wrong' to address there.

Pretty much the response I expected and fair enough, it is much much harder to fairly pick and choose who is responsible and dare I say it worthy of a right. It opens a great big can of worms that is very frightening and so I fully understand why people instantly reject any opposition to the idea that everyone gets the same rights. But, I stand by my point. If you believe that someone who is clinically depressed, violently angry and suicidal should be able to buy a firearm, simply because to deny them access would be to admit that they are less responsible and worthy of the right to bear arms than someone who is not suffering from psychological problems highlights a glaring flaw in the whole idea.

I completely understand the problems raised by who gets to pick and choose and so maybe you are right to reject it out of hand, based solely on the fact that it would be hard to find a way of doing it that is accepted by all but you cannot hold to the belief that it is a perfect system.
 

mr aize

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I suppose it comes down to trust in society's ability to grow in a positive direction. Trust in people to do the right thing by all, rather than to corrupt the system for personal gain. You are probably right, for the moment, it would not be possible to prevent this kind of corruption, people are still too motivated by self interest and personal gain, to be trusted with the responsibility. Makes me sad for humanity.


Gotta be said, preventing sensible gun legislation and control because it would set a political precedent that could be abused further down the line is one of the saddest things I've read recently.
 
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Lagduf

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Gotta be said, preventing sensible gun legislation and control because it would set a political precedent that could be abused further down the line is one of the saddest things I've read recently.

"Sensible" is such a loaded term in this context. The implication is that anyone who does not agree with your "sensible" position is espousing a non-sensible, or nonsense (unreasonable/irrational) position.

What would be "sensible" gun control in America?

Are you aware there are several US States where you don't even even need a license to conceal a handgun on your person?
 

mr aize

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"Sensible" is such a loaded term in this context. The implication is that anyone who does not agree with your "sensible" position is espousing a non-sensible, or nonsense (unreasonable/irrational) position.

What would be "sensible" gun control in America?

Are you aware there are several US States where you don't even even need a license to conceal a handgun on your person?

Sensible gun control is indeed a loaded term and what is sensible to one person would no doubt be deemed extreme by another. For me, sensible gun control would be laws to prevent the wrong people gaining access to firearms, be it by forcing people to keep them under lock and key, so that their depressed suicidal teenage relative can't load up and go take out a school or preventing someone with violent, aggressive anger management issues buying one and later using it to kill their wife.
 

whisper2053

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Sensible gun control is indeed a loaded term and what is sensible to one person would no doubt be deemed extreme by another. For me, sensible gun control would be laws to prevent the wrong people gaining access to firearms, be it by forcing people to keep them under lock and key, so that their depressed suicidal teenage relative can't load up and go take out a school or preventing someone with violent, aggressive anger management issues buying one and later using it to kill their wife.

To that I would retort 'responsible' should take the place of 'sensible' in this particular discussion. Responsibility and personal accountability would bring to term sensibility, merely by default. Those same individuals that (in your example) are knowingly leaving a loaded firearm in an easily accessible location to a known depressed teenager are foolish. No amount of legislation will ever cure this. The answer is to ensure that a society that embraces firearms ownership be encouraged (if not required) to receive the appropriate training and education necessary to become the aforementioned 'responsible' firearm owners. It seems quite silly to me, that in a culture that espouses ownership and use of firearms as a natural given right, we do not have something along the lines of 'principles of firearms ownership' taught in schools.

And in response to those that further violate societal constraints and harm/kill others through firearms usage? I would have thought that would be easy. It's already illegal to hurt other people, isn't it? Educate, integrate, enforce. Done.
 

evil wasabi

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Mr. Aize is straight up brow beating, people. No need to respond anymore.
 
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