Nagorno-Karabakh War

[smokey]

Nobody talking about this conflict? If both side are telling the thruth already thousands of troops have died and several hunderd thanks,radars,missile launchers destroyed.
Because of my Christian-descent I prefer the young democratic Armenia over the dictatorship of Azerbeijan. However you can't deny the fact that Armenia has caused almost a million people to flee. Which are still internally displaced in Azerbejian.

They day they began the offencive Azerbejian relased this video: All I can say is WTF? It looks like an evil regime from a bad movie.

 

[LoneSage]

Pre-covid, I wanted to visit Armenia and Azerbaijan, including Nagorno-Karakbakh. So I surprisingly have a little knowledge of the area.

For anyone who wants the tl;dr of it: when Armenia and Azerbaijan were part of the USSR, the Russians drew arbitrary boundary lines. Nagorno-Karabakh should have been part of Armenia with its large population of ethnic Armenians, but was drawn as part of Azerbaijan. They eventually seceded from Azerbaijan, which Azerbaijan never accepted, and formed their own republic/quasi-country under the protection of Armenia. A war ensued, and a ceasefire signed in 1994...until Azerbaijan came back to reclaim it a few days ago.

This is pretty wild. It's like if North and South Korea went to war again. Personally I don't see how Azerbaijan thinks they can hold the area when the overwhelming majority of people object to being ruled by Azerbaijan, unless they genocide them and all and just keep the land.

That music video is an absolute banger tho. Makes me feel bad for enjoying it.

Where's Bobak

 

[smokey]

It is pretty wild! And Turkey is one of the main instigators of this conflict and is using the exact opposite retoric when it come to Cyprus. Both dictators Erdogan and Alijev are using warlike rethoric that reminds of Hitlerwhich is pretty scary?

However don't forget that armenia occupies much more then just the original Oblast . And around 800k Azeris who lived in that area are still displaced.


The point of that it should be added to Armenia because ethnic armenians live there is quite silly. You don't give El Paso to Mexico because more Ethnic Latinos live there then ethnic Europeans. What I do find interesting is that Nagorno-Karabach declared independance from the Soviet Union before Azerbejian. So how does that work in international law, i don't know.

 

[evil wasabi]

Nobody talking about this conflict? If both side are telling the thruth already thousands of troops have died and several hunderd thanks,radars,missile launchers destroyed.
Because of my Christian-descent I prefer the young democratic Armenia over the dictatorship of Azerbeijan. However you can't deny the fact that Armenia has caused almost a million people to flee. Which are still internally displaced in Azerbejian.

They day they began the offencive Azerbejian relased this video: All I can say is WTF? It looks like an evil regime from a bad movie.

That video is fucking nuts.

I am talking about this almost daily.

What the Azerbaijanis are doing along with Turkey is seeking an excuse for genocide. Please be careful sympathizing with the Azerbaijani people. Right now, Turkey and Azerbaijan are paying for ISIS to come in as "syrian rebel mercenaries" and cause harm. And never forget that Turkey has been involved in two genocides over the past 100 years - Armenian and Kurdish. The current government cannot be trusted. Also remember that Erdogan staged a fake military coup, complete with obvious flight routing for a fake coup, simply to push the international community to hand over Gulen so that Erdogan could execute him and make a point. These guys are homicidal psychopaths, and that includes Azerbaijan, one of the worst human rights offenders in history. Don't sympathize with them. And don't believe them.

The displacement of people in that region has been ongoing for 20 years. Two decades. Many of them moved into Armenia, Iran, and other other neighboring countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_in_Azerbaijan Many of them azerbaijani. If Turkey and Azerbaijan is to be believed, they were escaping Armenians (which sounds like a Turkish talking point in reference to the genocide of armenians, which they justify saying it was a war), but what do those people say, who are Azerbaijani and didn't return to Azerbaijan for refuge? If you ask those Azerbaijani, they would probably deny they are from Azerbaijan now, because they just want to live in peace. https://hetq.am/en/article/5904

So don't side with Armenia here because they're Christian. Side with Armenia because the other side in this conflict includes two truly savage political leaders, who will do whatever it takes to kill people they don't agree with.

 

[evil wasabi]

The point of that it should be added to Armenia because ethnic armenians live there is quite silly. You don't give El Paso to Mexico because more Ethnic Latinos live there then ethnic Europeans. What I do find interesting is that Nagorno-Karabach declared independance from the Soviet Union before Azerbejian. So how does that work in international law, i don't know.

How it works would likely follow the precedent of Kosovo, where a region of disputed "ownership" (these sick old people in power think they determine who owns land), will be given self governing rights through the UN. So the sovereign nation of Artsakh will likely be formed from this.

 

[lithy]

So far the Azerbaijanis are winning based on that music video alone.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Nobody talking about this conflict? If both side are telling the thruth already thousands of troops have died and several hunderd thanks,radars,missile launchers destroyed.

Will no one think of the radars? What kind of world are we leaving behind for our radars?

 

[Lagduf]

I did hear about this conflict on my local public radio.

I suppose the danger of this conflict is an escalation by other states joining in.

How is Turkey even a member of NATO at this point?

 

[evil wasabi]

I did hear about this conflict on my local public radio.

I suppose the danger of this conflict is an escalation by other states joining in.

How is Turkey even a member of NATO at this point?

That’s a good question. Russian media has been painting Azerbaijan’s president as Erdogan’s bitch. When Russian news does that, it must be pretty bad.

There is a strong worry that this could end up being much bigger, and between Russia and Turkey. Relations between the two nations are not good.

 

[Tripredacus]

I'm not sure if there will be a war between Russia and Turkey. They tried that already in Syria and it didn't work out very well. Now they are working together there. But I do think things will come to a head once al-Nusra is defeated and Syria tries to retake the territory occupied by FSA, or go after SDF and lay claim to the territory that Turkey took from them. Then we could see a situation where Turkey will be up against Russia again.

But overall I think Turkey is spreading too thin and being active in too many places. Besides Syria they are active in the conflict for this thread, but also Libya, another place I forget, and is threatening to take Cyprus from Greece. Someone will have enough of them and won't go along with Erdogan's idea of rebuilding the Caliphate or resurrecting the Ottoman Empire like he's been talking about.

 

[Lagduf]

Isn’t Greece a member of NATO?

What a cluster that would be.

It’s good thing America can step in and...aw, fuck

 

[Heinz]

Will no one think of the radars? What kind of world are we leaving behind for our radars?

But what about the Thanks!?

 

[LoneSage]

It’s good thing America can step in and...aw, fuck

What a burden it is to be a superpower.

 

[SouthtownKid]

What a burden it is to be a superpower.

Yeah, I think Kipling commented on that one time.

 

[smokey]

Shit just got weird:

 

[andsuchisdeath]

Maybe a week before the fighting made waves in the media, I was learning about the Udi people who live in Azerbaijan. According to wikipedia there are 8,000 to 10,000 Udi people living worldwide, and their language qualifies as "severely endangered". Anyways, I spent maybe a week learning about the Udi's, which turned into me researching more about the region of Azerbaijan pre-soviet era (the original Azerbaijan for those who don't know is located northwest Iran), as well as historical Armenia (I've always known a lot, but learning never ends, and I never knew about the Udi's). And I was like "Gee wiz, I'm glad the fighting in Nagorno-Karabahk/Artsakh isn't a thing anymore". "Not only must I fulfill my dream of going to Armenia. But I want to visit Stepanakert too". Then I went to bed.

The next morning I saw a banner hung over a bridge while I was driving to work that said #STOPAZERBAIJAN

So maybe next time I do "research", I should take a moment to see what current happenings are taking place as well.

 

[LoneSage]

I'm quite certain the psychic residue that emanated from you while learning about that part of the world is what sparked it off again.

 

[andsuchisdeath]

I'm quite certain the psychic residue that emanated from you while learning about that part of the world is what sparked it off again.

Thanks, I'm glad you noticed. I actually told some people this, but I didn't want to say it in my post.

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?280633-Any-psychics&highlight=psychic

 

[90s]

That video is fucking nuts.

I am talking about this almost daily.

What the Azerbaijanis are doing along with Turkey is seeking an excuse for genocide. Please be careful sympathizing with the Azerbaijani people. Right now, Turkey and Azerbaijan are paying for ISIS to come in as "syrian rebel mercenaries" and cause harm. And never forget that Turkey has been involved in two genocides over the past 100 years - Armenian and Kurdish. The current government cannot be trusted. Also remember that Erdogan staged a fake military coup, complete with obvious flight routing for a fake coup, simply to push the international community to hand over Gulen so that Erdogan could execute him and make a point. These guys are homicidal psychopaths, and that includes Azerbaijan, one of the worst human rights offenders in history. Don't sympathize with them. And don't believe them.

The displacement of people in that region has been ongoing for 20 years. Two decades. Many of them moved into Armenia, Iran, and other other neighboring countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_in_Azerbaijan Many of them azerbaijani. If Turkey and Azerbaijan is to be believed, they were escaping Armenians (which sounds like a Turkish talking point in reference to the genocide of armenians, which they justify saying it was a war), but what do those people say, who are Azerbaijani and didn't return to Azerbaijan for refuge? If you ask those Azerbaijani, they would probably deny they are from Azerbaijan now, because they just want to live in peace. https://hetq.am/en/article/5904

So don't side with Armenia here because they're Christian. Side with Armenia because the other side in this conflict includes two truly savage political leaders, who will do whatever it takes to kill people they don't agree with.

Your post pretty much echoes how I view the situation. I think history indicates that the Armenians in N-K are fighting for more than just land as they could face another genocide if they were under the control of Turkey/Azerbaijan.

What I find frustrating is the inability or unwillingness of other nations/groups to intervene for a variety of reasons. Turkey is a member nation of NATO, so it is likely that other NATO nations will side with Turkey/Azerbaijan. Even when Turkey/Azerbaijan are employing jihadist fighters. N-K independence is not recognized by any other nation besides Armenia. World politics is a cesspool of unlikely bedmates all working together for mutual interests, not necessarily for what is objectively right. Canadian technology was being used in Turkish/Azeri weapons. What kind of world is it where Canadian technology is helping dictators? Its disgusting.

I think the best outcome will be to establish a legal, binding, and respected process whereby N-K can gain its recognition as a sovereign nation. It will be difficult to get Armenia to give back occupied land if the prospect of Azeri aggression is always there, but this too would likely have to be a part of any agreement.

I'm just some guy, but if the vast majority of people in a region within a country want their independence and to possibly establish a democracy, why would other democratic nations not recognize and support that instead of siding with dictators? The alternative might be a genocide where these countries would be complicit.

 

[LoneSage]

I'm just some guy, but if the vast majority of people in a region within a country want their independence and to possibly establish a democracy, why would other democratic nations not recognize and support that instead of siding with dictators?

Because then you will be involved in a war. Countries can not get involved in another country's affairs in regards to respecting their sovereignty. Azerbaijan claims N-K is their territory and N-K is not a sovereign nation in the eyes of the UN.

For example, if Hitler just stayed inside Germany instead of invading Poland, you think other countries would step in to save the Jews? Hell no. What countries do within their borders, other countries can not interfere unless you want to go to war.

 

[90s]

Because then you will be involved in a war. Countries can not get involved in another country's affairs in regards to respecting their sovereignty. Azerbaijan claims N-K is their territory and N-K is not a sovereign nation in the eyes of the UN.

For example, if Hitler just stayed inside Germany instead of invading Poland, you think other countries would step in to save the Jews? Hell no. What countries do within their borders, other countries can not interfere unless you want to go to war.

I hear you. I wasn't talking about military intervention but more like sanctions, diplomatic measures, and so on. But besides fruitless negotiations involving Russia and Turkey, it doesn't look like much is happening along those lines. It does look like other nations have some involvement in the conflict though, namely Turkey.

With regards to the recognition of N-K sovereignty, I was thinking along the lines of mechanisms by which it can be done in democratic countries, for example, the mechanism by which Quebec has and can still pursue it in Canada. It was naive to think something like that was possible in a dictatorship.

So the only option for the Armenians in N-K would be to fight and maintain a stalemate without support from the international community while Azerbaijan is backed by Turkey. It seems dire for them. So the best outcome would be like what the Koreas have?

Dude, your Hitler example is frightening. It may be partly the reason for why some genocides, including recent ones like in Rwanda, have transpired. What's even more frightening is that this could be a very real danger in the N-K conflict, specially since there is historical precedent for it.

 

[Lagduf]

Because then you will be involved in a war. Countries can not get involved in another country's affairs in regards to respecting their sovereignty. Azerbaijan claims N-K is their territory and N-K is not a sovereign nation in the eyes of the UN.

For example, if Hitler just stayed inside Germany instead of invading Poland, you think other countries would step in to save the Jews? Hell no. What countries do within their borders, other countries can not interfere unless you want to go to war.

No country entered WW2 on the side of the allies explicitly to save the Jews .

 

[Tripredacus]

Countries can not get involved in another country's affairs in regards to respecting their sovereignty.

You're living in the past. No one cares about sovereignty anymore.

 

[evil wasabi]

You're living in the past. No one cares about sovereignty anymore.

Only in terms of cyber warfare. But sending troops into a country will get a sharp reaction.

The politicians haven't adapted to the technology.

 

[Tripredacus]

But sending troops into a country will get a sharp reaction.

Only if it is a country that isn't the US or France.