Several dead in shooting in Munich shopping mall

[StevenK]

I'm not afraid, and quit being a sanctimonious asshole. I have far more experience than you when it comes to how bad care facilities for the elderly can be. Fraud, theft, negligence, and abuse are a constant issue. If they weren't, my job would be superfluous. Nice cherry picking the theft statement and ignoring the abuse and neglect. Go look up some picture of how bad bed sores can get and realize that I see those on a monthly basis. The human part of elderly care needs to be fixed, and there aren't enough enforcement personnel to police them all. Replacing a large portion of the direct care staff with machines would severely reduce the problem. Also, elderly is defined as 60 years or older in most countries.

Loneliness is a constant issue. No one in their right mind would put their elderly loved ones in the care of robots, you are delusional. Believe it or not, just because it's not true of you, most people like people. Caring goes far beyond whether someone is being abused or not, it requires somebody to actually care. The clue is in the name.

I never said we should end immigration. I said "we don't need more unskilled labor" Please go back, read my post, and attempt to understand it before shooting off so premature.

You said "It's entirely possible to continue growing a country's GDP without population growth through automation." Why would you discuss this if you weren't talking about ending immigration? Are you expecting the resident population to decline in line with immigration to balance the numbers? How? 1 for 1 extermination?

Those who can afford to upskill and seek new work do so. Others use social welfare programs. Others move to a location where their labor is in higher demand. If you want a good example of what rapid automation and loss of labor does to a city, look at Detroit. Detroit crashed hard, and to recover, they actually DID upskill. It's major source of GDP is now information technology and technologies for automation of manufacturing.

Detroit is fucked. Rapid automation wrote the city off. As you say, what followed was people leaving on a massive scale. If this is true of all work, even down to the most critical hands on human activities like the care industry, where do you suggest people go?

People will need jobs as long as labor holds value. Caring for an elderly population is not the only labor one can perform, and it will be automated 85% by 2025 in countries that need it most, like Japan.

If we can automate 85% of care work we can automate 85% of anything, so what labour do you think people are going to do? Why would they?

It is inevitable that welfare will expand. I don't feel anything about it. Everyone loves a handout.

Do you consider something closer to the European model to be the future america needs then?

Keep those ad-hominem attacks coming. They really make you look good.

You make it about yourself when you pick and choose models to support what you want to happen, rather than looking at all sides of the debate and deciding what is likely to happen.

You're led and incredibly sheltered life, haven't you?

No.

 

[DNSDies]

Loneliness is a constant issue. No one in their right mind would put their elderly loved ones in the care of robots, you are delusional. Believe it or not, just because it's not true of you, most people like people. Caring goes far beyond whether someone is being abused or not, it requires somebody to actually care. The clue is in the name.

Do you think care workers interact with the clients on a meaningful basis? Very few do. I'd say about 15%. Most client socialization comes between other clients, assuming the client is ambulatory. It's also not the job of the state to provide companionship. It never has been. No state or country in its right mind would legislate social interaction between care staff and clients beyond basic client rights to not be abused or neglected. Many staff don't even speak the same language as the people they care for because many are immigrants on work visas. Those clients that are able to move and speak can take care of themselves when it comes to entertainment and social interactions.

You said "It's entirely possible to continue growing a country's GDP without population growth through automation." Why would you discuss this if you weren't talking about ending immigration? Are you expecting the resident population to decline in line with immigration to balance the numbers? How? 1 for 1 extermination?

I straight up said what I meant, and meant what I said. We don't need unskilled labor from untrained unskilled immigrants. Very few countries do. Even Japan, one of the lower birth rate countries doesn't need unskilled immigrants.

Detroit is fucked. Rapid automation wrote the city off. As you say, what followed was people leaving on a massive scale. If this is true of all work, even down to the most critical hands on human activities like the care industry, where do you suggest people go?

Detroit is a lot less fucked than it used to be. Suburban Detroit is still pretty bad, but Metropolitan Detroit is growing very quickly. Suburban Detroit's problems are that the economy of car production was replaced by one of drug production.

If we can automate 85% of care work we can automate 85% of anything, so what labour do you think people are going to do? Why would they?

That's quite the quantum leap, and it's not true at all. You can't automate analytical work without the existence of Strong AI. Anything that requires thought (for lack of a better term) still requires humans. You couldn't make a robotic insurance claims adjuster or police officer without a human-level Strong AI behind it. I'm not even going to speculate how far away that is, or what it would mean for humanity. Also, as long as human labor is cheaper than robotic, humans will do the work.

Do you consider something closer to the European model to be the future america needs then?

No. Uncontrolled and unchecked immigration and a nanny welfare state is a terrible idea. It is inevitable, though, because:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy..."

 

[StevenK]

Do you think care workers interact with the clients on a meaningful basis? Very few do. I'd say about 15%. Most client socialization comes between other clients, assuming the client is ambulatory.

Figure pulled from anus.

It's also not the job of the state to provide companionship. It never has been. No state or country in its right mind would legislate social interaction between care staff and clients beyond basic client rights to not be abused or neglected. Many staff don't even speak the same language as the people they care for because many are immigrants on work visas. Those clients that are able to move and speak can take care of themselves when it comes to entertainment and social interactions.

Who's talking about the states role? It's the basic role of human beings to interact with other human beings they are around. This doesn't need to be legislated for, it just happens. What kind of creature are you?

I straight up said what I meant, and meant what I said. We don't need unskilled labor from untrained unskilled immigrants. Very few countries do. Even Japan, one of the lower birth rate countries doesn't need unskilled immigrants.

What you said was a direct rebuff to Norton's comment,

"All Industrialized nations need immigration from developing nations."

You can backpeddle and pretend you meant something else, whatever, we both know what you meant.

Detroit is a lot less fucked than it used to be. Suburban Detroit is still pretty bad, but Metropolitan Detroit is growing very quickly. Suburban Detroit's problems are that the economy of car production was replaced by one of drug production.

A lot less fucked than it used to be. High praise. Model society.

That's quite the quantum leap, and it's not true at all. You can't automate analytical work without the existence of Strong AI. Anything that requires thought (for lack of a better term) still requires humans. You couldn't make a robotic insurance claims adjuster or police officer without a human-level Strong AI behind it. I'm not even going to speculate how far away that is, or what it would mean for humanity. Also, as long as human labor is cheaper than robotic, humans will do the work.

I was referring to labour, not skilled work. Of all labour work, care work would be one of the hardest to automate to the tune of 85%. Lifting a pain ridden old body is not a case of whirring in a forklift, slotting it in some bone-drilled pitons and flipping the poor fuck like a burger. I've seen it done with two of my four grandparents, it took three people to do, involved lots of waiting inbetween steps for the patient to recover and infinite tiny adjustments along the way. Your idea is stupid and degrading and only a sociopath would stand for it.

No. Uncontrolled and unchecked immigration and a nanny welfare state is a terrible idea. It is inevitable, though, because:

Generic wash hands of problem quote.

Overall F-

 

[Tripredacus]

Meanwhile, in France:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785

"so-called Islamic State" ... what does this mean? Islamic State does not exist?

 

[DNSDies]

"No True Scotsman"

 

[Pasky]

 

[norton9478]

"so-called Islamic State" ... what does this mean? Islamic State does not exist?

The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor an empire. Discuss."

 

[Dr Shroom]

Back at the Hall of Justice:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/693539/Gunman-opens-fire-in-Swedish-shopping-mall

 

[StevenK]

Meanwhile, in France:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36892785

I'd be quite happy if religious nutbags confined their actions to religious buildings.

 

[MuppeT]

There should be a special subforum .. where idiots like stevenk and norton9478 can be locked and left to discus their infantile understandings of life and politics.... their gibberish is not even war-room worthy.

 

[DNSDies]

I'd be quite happy if religious nutbags confined their actions to religious buildings.

Are you happy an 86 year old priest had his throat slit in the middle of Mass because it happened in a christian church?
I really hope this isn't the thought process behind that post.

 

[norton9478]

There should be a special subforum .. where idiots like stevenk and norton9478 can be locked and left to discus their infantile understandings of life and politics.... their gibberish is not even war-room worthy.

really rich coming from you.

 

[StevenK]

Are you happy an 86 year old priest had his throat slit in the middle of Mass because it happened in a christian church?
I really hope this isn't the thought process behind that post.

I'm saying the world would be a safer place if religious nutbags confined terrorism to religious buildings. It was obvious what I meant.

 

[DNSDies]

That's a reprehensible thought.
I doubt that priest, or any religious man who works to better his community deserves any level of "terrorism" in their buildings.

I don't know why you have such a hate boner for religion, but there's no call for that. This particular priest was a member of his community for decades, and was well known and loved. He didn't deserve this, and that it happened does not make the world any better or safer.

 

[StevenK]

That's a reprehensible thought.
I doubt that priest, or any religious man who works to better his community deserves any level of "terrorism" in their buildings.

I don't know why you have such a hate boner for religion, but there's no call for that. This particular priest was a member of his community for decades, and was well known and loved. He didn't deserve this, and that it happened does not make the world any better or safer.

Perhaps he was lucky, he would probably have ended up being robbed and raped in a care home otherwise.

Anyway, enough of the faux indignation, I'm assuming you're just going to dodge the points above then? Ah well.

On reflection, I will concede that 85% of your posts could indeed be automated.

 

[DNSDies]

Perhaps he was lucky, he would probably have ended up being robbed and raped in a care home otherwise.

Anyway, enough of the faux indignation, I'm assuming you're just going to dodge the points above then? Ah well.

On reflection, I will concede that 85% of your posts could indeed be automated.

No indignation here. Just honestly surprised you have such a vitriolic hatred of religion that you'd consider violence in a place of worship a "safer world".

As far as debating your other points above, I will say this:
The figures I have for the information I posted I cannot provide, because I am one of only a dozen people with access to the statistics and reports concerning how frequent abuse actually happens in various care facilities, and I would lose my job trying to prove it over an internet fight.

If you want some good public information, the American Health Care Association has a report on direct caregiver staff that gives a grim picture of the level of incompetence and EXTREMELY high turnover rate for Direct Caregivers.

Also, you seem to misunderstand me when I talk about automated caregiving. I'm not talking about humanoid robots carrying people around. I'm talking about things like exoskeletons that would help the elderly stay ambulatory and grant them huge amounts of independence, and would allow a single caregiver to perform many tasks that used to take 3-4 people. Specialized bidet-like machines that can help the elderly to evacuate waste and clean them without subjecting them to the indignity of having some stranger do it for them.

 

[StevenK]

No indignation here. Just honestly surprised you have such a vitriolic hatred of religion that you'd consider violence in a place of worship a "safer world".

As far as debating your other points above, I will say this:
The figures I have for the information I posted I cannot provide, because I am one of only a dozen people with access to the statistics and reports concerning how frequent abuse actually happens in various care facilities, and I would lose my job trying to prove it over an internet fight.

If you want some good public information, the American Health Care Association has a report on direct caregiver staff that gives a grim picture of the level of incompetence and EXTREMELY high turnover rate for Direct Caregivers.

Also, you seem to misunderstand me when I talk about automated caregiving. I'm not talking about humanoid robots carrying people around. I'm talking about things like exoskeletons that would help the elderly stay ambulatory and grant them huge amounts of independence, and would allow a single caregiver to perform many tasks that used to take 3-4 people. Specialized bidet-like machines that can help the elderly to evacuate waste and clean them without subjecting them to the indignity of having some stranger do it for them.

You don't think containment of terrorist activities would make the world a safer place? That's not basic common sense?

The only figure I have questioned was that only 15% of caregivers interact with patients, which you admit you made up in the sentence you made the claim in with the words "I'd say". You haven't provided any other statistics at all, just that you think it would be better for patients to kill themselves than to go into care, which I know you didn't mean, but if you refuse to be held to statements you inferred but didn't directly say, then I'll hold you to statements you didn't mean but did say. Can't have it both ways.

In terms of automated care giving, the first you mention would be something designed to keep people out of care, which is entirely different, and the second already exists...

 

[DNSDies]

You don't think containment of terrorist activities would make the world a safer place? That's not basic common sense?

No. Just no. It's not acceptable to kill peaceful religious figures.

The only figure I have questioned was that only 15% of caregivers interact with patients, which you admit you made up in the sentence you made the claim in with the words "I'd say".

There are no hard and fast statistics, but I infer it's roughly 15-20% direct care staff interacting with clients on a social level over the course of a year.
60% of direct care staff quit their jobs in the first year. This is public information, The rest is not, so I cannot say. Feel free to disregard me, because I won't be able to explain how I came to that number.

You haven't provided any other statistics at all, just that you think it would be better for patients to kill themselves than to go into care

I would rather shoot myself then subject myself to the elderly care that most countries provide.

Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

 

[StevenK]

No. Just no. It's not acceptable to kill peaceful religious figures.


There are no hard and fast statistics, but I infer it's roughly 15-20% direct care staff interacting with clients on a social level over the course of a year.
60% of direct care staff quit their jobs in the first year. This is public information, The rest is not, so I cannot say. Feel free to disregard me, because I won't be able to explain how I came to that number.



Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

I didn't ask if it was acceptable, I asked if it would make the world safer. Deliberately answering a different question.

Made up 15% figure rising to 20% for no obvious reason, so no choice but to disregard the figures, as you offer.

I didn't misrepresent you in any way, in fact I specifically said that you didn't mean what I was about to say. Not sure how I could less misrepresent you.

What you said earlier made no sense, now you are backing it up by saying you can't back it up. If that's the case, don't say it in the first place. I'm sure you are in the top 12 of the US care elite, who's reach extends so far so as to be able to judge international care standards from insder information also, but unless you can actually talk about it you might as well stay silent.

 

[neobuyer]

Yeah, we do have a problem with integrating immigrants into our society, or should I say a new problem with integration.

Until the late 90s, the official policy was to deny that Germany is a country of immigration. They called them Gastarbeiter (guest workers) and let them gather in ghettos, didn't bother with teaching them German and everyone silently hoped that they would go back to their home countries one day.

Now it's the other way around, they think they have a super politically and culturally correct system of integration and heap all that SozPaed-babble they learn at universities on immigrants whose value systems and cultural peculiarities more often than not are completely incompatible to it.

In both cases, the wandering-off into sub-cultures and parallel societies continues unabated which creates ample chances for bullshit-spouting radicals to make a big haul. The old problem was based on ignorance, the new one is based on ignorance plus a strange brew of categorical imperative and patronizing post-'68 let's-all-be-friends nonsense.

The thing is, a young lad from Syria or Afghanistan who fled from the horrors of war does not need a cardigan-wearing middle-aged Kirchentags-Blockfloete with a songbook who makes him dance his name but a firm hand that teaches him the facts of everyday German life instead of creating a bubble full of unicorns and rainbows that bursts as soon as he comes in touch with the real world. It's this sudden contrast of reality vs. the technicolor dream of how things should be which more often than not represents the first piece of the jigsaw puzzle of radicalization, either mentality-wise (like the Munich attacker) or religiously (like the axe guy).

Brilliant stuff Tak.

 

[norton9478]

No. Just no. It's not acceptable to kill peaceful religious figures.


.

Only peaceful ones?

 

[Pasky]

Okay Europe, I've had enough. It really is the twilight zone over there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...kbar-threatening-exterminate-women-sluts.html

Gang of Muslims storm nudist pool in Germany yelling 'Allahu Akbar' and threatening to 'exterminate' women for being 'sluts'
Six men in their 20s burst into Geldern pool in North Rhine-Westphalia area
The men were fluent in German and Arabic as they volleyed abusive threats
Bearded gang spat at women and children because they were in the nude
After harassing pool staff and customers, they targeted a water skiing park

"Meanwhile the professional swimming association in Germany wants to reduce escalating sex attacks by refugees at public baths by training migrants to become pool lifeguards."

So masochistic.

 

[DNSDies]

Only peaceful ones?

Are you saying it's unacceptable to kill violent religious figures?
If you kill them, do they win?

 

[Pasky]

Are you saying it's unacceptable to kill violent religious figures?
If you kill them, do they win?

If we put out fires...the fires win...

 

[CaseyTappy]

Never ending fun with refugees in Germany .

https://www.rt.com/news/353485-germany-rape-refugee-cemetery/