U.S. Government: 3 centuries in medical experimentation

[LWK]

Vaccines = Big Business
Swine Flu = Fraudulent standard flu blown up for profits
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

All things in american existence = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
your lives mean nothing if they can soft kill you without getting in trouble.

Society is so dumbed down mercury is just a added bonus. What about water fluoridation?

 

[Nesagwa]

A commie plot.

 

[LoneSage]

Ford really fucked it up in the 70s.

 

[norton9478]

a possible side effect of flu vaccine is blindness. FUCKING BLINDNESS.

who in their right mind would risk blindness for a week of the flu?

the very elderly and newborns maybe, but then again the flu vaccine is horseshit anyway because it's basically the drug companies guessing what particular strain will be 'dominant' this season

drug companies and government in bed together, just like the banks, trying to push their bullshit products down our throat under the guise of protection

But nobody is really forced to take a flu vaccine are they?

I mean, there is a difference between the Flu and Tetnus.

 

[fake]

Btw, if you're vaccinated, why does it matter if no one else is? If the vaccine works, you're protected. SO why force your beliefs on someone else.

Here's a good intro to the whole debacle: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

 

[Force]

Here's a good intro to the whole debacle: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

I just skimmed that article, but i basically got 3 major points from it: a) vaccines are AWESOME (for the most part true. still think flu vaccines are worthless for the most part, but whatever) b) unvaccinated kids get sick (duh) c) vaccines are harmless (again, for the most part true...im not sold that injectable heavy metals are harmless in the case of the current flu vax...but then again we get a good dose of heavy metals from fish we eat these days too. so its a bit of a toss up.)

But none of that refutes my point. If you want to be protected or get your kids protected, great, get the vaccines. If someone else doesn't i still dont see how that harms you, if you're vaccinated.

Something im curious about. the article states 10s of thousands die from rotovirus (stomach flu for those who dont know). Where? Im willing to bet most of those numbers are from countries where people dont readily have access to decent health care.

 

[norton9478]

Most of the vaccine fear mongering crowd reminds me of the guy that refuses to wear his seatbelt because he knows somebody who knows somebody who was in an accident, and would have died if they had their seat belt on.

Also, I'm not biologist expert, but I'd suppose that having an epidemic among the unvaccinated gives the virus a better chance to evolve and make vaccines less effective.

 

[fake]

Also, I'm not biologist expert, but I'd suppose that having an epidemic among the vaccinated gives the virus a better chance to evolve and make vaccines less effective.

You mean the non-vaccinated? If so, yeah I think that's the gist of it. There's been an endemic of whooping cough recently, and a lot of experts are saying its because of people refusing vaccines for the past few years. There are some diseases that were pretty much eradicated that are now making a comeback. Same deal with those.

 

[Force]

Most of the vaccine fear mongering crowd reminds me of the guy that refuses to wear his seatbelt because he knows somebody who knows somebody who was in an accident, and would have died if they had their seat belt on.

Also, I'm not biologist expert, but I'd suppose that having an epidemic among the vaccinated gives the virus a better chance to evolve and make vaccines less effective.

Id guess just the opposite actually. Look at bacteria for instance. They mutate when exposed to antibiotics. Develop defense mechanisms, etc. Why? because shit is killing them off and they need to adapt to thrive. Id guess the same logic would apply to viruses. Not saying its a valid reason to not get vaccinated though.

And just to make my position clear, i largely believe in vaccinations. But I also believe in choice. And ive seen no valid reasons to force others to get vaccines (especially the flu vax...lol)

 

[Force]

You mean the non-vaccinated? If so, yeah I think that's the gist of it. There's been an endemic of whooping cough recently, and a lot of experts are saying its because of people refusing vaccines for the past few years. There are some diseases that were pretty much eradicated that are now making a comeback. Same deal with those.

Hrm. There are two ways to look at that scenario. The most simple (and logical) would be to assume the people refusing the vaccine are the ones getting sick. Increased people refusing vaccine = increased number of people getting sick. If there was a mutated form of pertussis going around, everyone would be getting it because the antibodies we have would be fucking useless against it.

The scenario youre describing is a lot more far fetched, unless you have some proof that a substantial number of vaccinated people are catching it too.

PS: the more i re-read that wired article, the more parts of it sound like a giant sales pitch for that guys vaccine. lol.

 

[brentsg]

I think choice is important for the most part. And yeah I'm a believer in vaccines that are critical, and my kids had all theirs as scheduled.

But when it comes to flu, chicken pox, and all the other BS.. They need to make them as safe as possible, not as cheap as possible. And still then, it should be the parents choice.

They didn't have a recommended rotovirus vaccine when my kids would have gotten it. My twins got that crap once really bad. One child was hospitalized for 2-3 days and the other one had an ER visit for IV fluids. It can be nasty stuff when they are very small and can't hold down fluids.

 

[Force]

I think choice is important for the most part. And yeah I'm a believer in vaccines that are critical, and my kids had all theirs as scheduled.

But when it comes to flu, chicken pox, and all the other BS.. They need to make them as safe as possible, not as cheap as possible. And still then, it should be the parents choice.

They didn't have a recommended rotovirus vaccine when my kids would have gotten it. My twins got that crap once really bad. One child was hospitalized for 2-3 days and the other one had an ER visit for IV fluids. It can be nasty stuff when they are very small and can't hold down fluids.

Yeah the last strain of rotovirus that went through here honestly had me thinking i was going to die for about a day. Spend the better part of 3 hours hugging the toilet and by the time i was done i was so dehydrated that i couldnt stand and i fell a couple times.

Im not sure how we got to arguing about vaccines though. I still think the OP's original idea was to start a conversation about how the dead birds in Arkansas are caused by the us government. And would be a far more interesting topic.

 

[norton9478]

Id guess just the opposite actually. Look at bacteria for instance. They mutate when exposed to antibiotics. Develop defense mechanisms, etc. Why? because shit is killing them off and they need to adapt to thrive. Id guess the same logic would apply to viruses. Not saying its a valid reason to not get vaccinated though.

Yeah, I thought about that too...

But remember that with drug resistant bacteria usually evolve because they don't get hit with the full treatment. And they are a bit more adaptable (since they don't require a living host to reproduce).

As far as viruses go, they need to keep finding hosts. Usually ones of the same species. The more infected people available, the faster it can evolve. If you can eradicate the virus in 99.99% of the population, it decreases the chances.

Also remember that vaccinations themselves are not 100% completely effective. So if you do the responsible thing and have your kid vaccinated against something, an epidemic at school could still hit him/her.

People who refuse vaccinations for the worst childhood diseases are essentially social loafers. As long as 99% of the population are getting vaccines, they have nothing to worry about. But if everybody or even a good chunk of the population were to follow their lead... CHAOS.

Kind of like having a bunch of buddies move a billiard table. There is always that one guy that just pretends to lift. If there two of them, you are screwed.

 

[aria]

So, anti-vaccine propaganda?

 

[SNKorSWM]

As far as viruses go, they need to keep finding hosts. Usually ones of the same species. The more infected people available, the faster it can evolve. If you can eradicate the virus in 99.99% of the population, it decreases the chances.

Even if a drug is developed and either destroys or otherwise renders impotent 99.999999% of the virus particles, that last 0.000001% unaffected will soon multiply and replace the rest of the viral population that were destroyed by the drug. When that happens the drug will be totally ineffective against it.

Even if the virus don't render the drug useless, they may still cope with it in small numbers until opportunity rises for an outbreak. For example, there are pathogens easily killed by nothing more than common Oxygen in the air, yet they still persist and infect people all the time (ever got stabbed by a rusty nail in the foot?).

 

[fake]

Even if a drug is developed and either destroys or otherwise renders impotent 99.999999% of the virus particles, that last 0.000001% unaffected will soon multiply and replace the rest of the viral population that were destroyed by the drug. When that happens the drug will be totally ineffective against it.

Even if the virus don't render the drug useless, they may still cope with it in small numbers until opportunity rises for an outbreak. For example, there are pathogens easily killed by nothing more than common Oxygen in the air, yet they still persist and infect people all the time (ever got stabbed by a rusty nail in the foot?).

Yeah, it's kind of like those "Kills 99.99 percent of bacteria!!!" ads. Yeah, there's less bacteria after you use that hand sanitizer, but the remaining bacteria are the strongest of the bunch. And those are the ones that are going to multiply.

 

[galfordo]

But nobody is really forced to take a flu vaccine are they?

I mean, there is a difference between the Flu and Tetnus.

not sure of all situations, but i'd bet that certain groups are required to take it

if not required, then heavily pressured by peers and 'medical professionals'


one headline that stands out to me is when the community recommends that 'everyone' receive the flu vaccine

that's just fucking ridiculous, and clearly an example of fear-mongering for profit

even if there weren't potentially harmful side effects, it's a completely irresponsible waste of resources

 

[caleb1883]

My doctor when I was a kid always told us that flu vaccines were guesswork and not to get them. However, the argument that certain diseases have been all but eradicated and vaccines are uneccesary is a little much. The reason they don't exist is because we are vaccinated and don't allow them to spread. As stated, we can kill 99.9% but there will always be something out there trying to get us and we will always have to come up with new ways to battle it.

Not exactly my opinion, but when I hear the argument against mandatory vaccines I always think of an episode of House where an "enlightned" mom comes into the clinic and refuses vaccinations for her baby because she says it is a scam. You can read the dialog on the link below.

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/06/vaccination-house-md-tv-series.html

 

[Hidden Character]

I'm not as concerned w/folks being anti-vaccines as I am w/the history of human experimentation for the sake of research, whether or not the "test subject" is/was aware of the motives and the research may not even be to find a cure for what ails the victim.

Yes, I've had my Tetanus and Hep B shots, but I, at least, have the right to be concerned about if the Feds added anything to said shots or not and whatever symptoms I'm suppose to just haven't surfaced yet.

 

[fake]

I dunno about the US specifically, but there's supposedly lithium in some countries' tap water. You know, so you don't realize "Hey, my life sucks" all of a sudden.

 

[Nesagwa]

I dunno about the US specifically, but there's supposedly lithium in some countries' tap water. You know, so you don't realize "Hey, my life sucks" all of a sudden.

Live in country with clean safe drinking water on tap.

Buy bottled water.

 

[cannonball]

Live in country with clean safe drinking water on tap.

Do those exist?

 

[Nesagwa]

Do those exist?

You have it main lined into your house.

Be glad you dont have to get your water from a river that people shit into up stream.

 

[cannonball]

You have it main lined into your house.

Be glad you dont have to get your water from a river that people shit into up stream.

Yes of course it's better than some third world country, and I figured you'd say something like that...but I still wouldn't drink what's coming out of the tap in my area. Even tap water in the USA is neither clean nor safe. Cleaner and safer than other places? sure.

 

[norton9478]

Live in country with clean safe drinking water on tap.

Buy bottled water.

Floridation is a communist plot.