Why haven't any of you doll fuckers started a Game of Thrones topic?

evil wasabi

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Tywin doesn't really get enough screen time, and I feel like if an audience here's him say "wherever whores go!" while sitting on a chamber pot, they won't understand the significance of the statement, because the show has completely glossed over every trademark line except hodor.
 

Nickrb

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Tywin doesn't really get enough screen time, and I feel like if an audience here's him say "wherever whores go!" while sitting on a chamber pot, they won't understand the significance of the statement, because the show has completely glossed over every trademark line except hodor.

It is challenging to convey the long-lasting psychological wounds Tywin has inflicted upon his kin in the format of a TV show. So instead, they have focused on him as a tyrannical puppet master, an important aspect of his character that is more readily communicable.

Who knows, maybe the writers will do a better job with Tywin next season.

:D
 

Taiso

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I didn't say they weren't important. Central to the story doesn't mean the characters are necessarily well developed.

It is true that Varys is well-explored in the books, and in some ways on the show. Tywin sure gets a lot of screen time on the show vs. in the books. The fact that in the books it is Roose Bolton at Harrenhal, for example.

I would say Robb Stark is a great example of an under-explored and somewhat one-dimensional character in the books. More of a symbol or narrative crux than a person, really. Do I think they did a great job with him on the show? No, but at least they tried to make him human.

You said 'they ain't shit'. I'm just pointing that out.
 

Nickrb

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You said 'they ain't shit'. I'm just pointing that out.

You are right, it was a poor choice of words and not quite what I meant.

The show can have scenes that we would never see in the books- those without any POV character. It is a key difference. Whether it is used effectively is questionable, but I think the additional degree of freedom is nice.

If you aren't around a POV character in the books the outcome for a character can be frustratingly ambiguous, even if they are important. Maybe this is the beauty of it. But I like resolution.

Spoiler:
See Sandor to use one of your examples.
 

Taiso

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You are right, it was a poor choice of words and not quite what I meant.

The show can have scenes that we would never see in the books- those without any POV character. It is a key difference. Whether it is used effectively is questionable, but I think the additional degree of freedom is nice.

If you aren't around a POV character in the books the outcome for a character can be frustratingly ambiguous, even if they are important. Maybe this is the beauty of it. But I like resolution.

Spoiler:
See Sandor to use one of your examples.

What would give the audience more satisfaction isn't what's right for the story. I'm not talking about the success of the show and its ability to draw a rating. I'm talking about the craft of storytelling.

Anyone can say 'Well, HBO is making money so STFU' but fuck that. How does HBO making money benefit me or the integrity of the narrative? It's the same argument as with comics. They tell shit stories but they sell and then people like to argue that because it made money, it was the right decision. No, it was the right BUSINESS decision. It's not even remotely the same thing.

Sandor isn't a character as much as he's a plot point. What happened to him may endear him to audiences, may make him their 'favorite character' or whatever else they want to call him, but the tragedy of his life isn't the story. It's simply there to give the character a tortured past that explains why he is the way he is and to serve as a maturing element for Sansa and Arya.

We know everything we need to know about Sandor. We knew everything we needed to know about Robb. Martin has said that he wishes he would have thought about doing some Robb POV chapters in retrospect, but whose to say that the story would have turned out the same way had he done that? Whose to say it would be better or worse?

I am not going to sit here and say 'the books are perfect' because they're not. But there is a lot in there that isn't making it onto the TV show that is better than some of the stuff they've chosen to do.

It's like Norton said. TV is a different medium and the show runners have to include mor eof what they think will keep people watching. It would just be nice for them to take a look at the books again and not lose sight of what's going on.

The show feels, and this is just my pure idle speculation, like the show runners have chosen to execute the vision in a way that is equal parts what they like about the story and what HBO mandates they focus on. Martin gets to hang around and be involved, but I highly doubt he'd be able to say or do much if they decided to have Arya learn a spell that allowed her to become fifty feet tall and stomp King's Landing to ruins underfoot.

The TV show is nice. I enjoy it. But as a fan of the series, I feel it could still better while still satisfying HBO's mandates.
 
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Nickrb

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What would give the audience more satisfaction isn't nwhat's right for the story.

Sandor isn't a character as much as he's a plot point. What happened to him may endear him to audiences, may make him their 'favorite character' or whatever else they want to call him, but the tragedy of his life isn't the story. It's simply there to give the character a tortured past that explains why he is the way he is and to serve as a maturing element for Sansa and Arya.

The highlighted point is what I was emphasizing- so many of the non-POV characters are treated like plot pivot points.

The story is the beautiful rich tapestry of characters.

Isn't part of the point of reading a book to find out what happens to the characters?

If he wants to make me love a character and then kill them off- thats great. But to make me love a character, read thousands of pages, and then make it totally ambiguous what happened to them… its an order of magnitude more frustrating.

Knock on wood and I wish him the best, but looking at Martin, his age, and his output rate the only resolution we may get to this story is through the show.
 
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Taiso

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The highlighted point is what I was emphasizing- so many of the non-POV characters are treated like plot pivot points.

The story is the beautiful rich tapestry of characters.

Isn't part of the point of reading a book to find out what happens to the characters?

If he wants to make me love a character and then kill them off- thats great. But to make me love a character, read thousands of pages, and then make it totally ambiguous what happened to them… its an order of magnitude more frustrating.

Knock on wood and I wish him the best, but looking at Martin, his age, and his output rate the only resolution we may get to this story is through the show.

I boldfaced your comment because that's what I was initially addressing:

You are attributing more value to the character than is actually there. You are the one, and audience members like you, that are saying "I love this character. I wish we saw more of him/her."

And it's great that, as fans, you get attached to those characters.

But that's where fans lose perspective. That's where their sensibilities start to affect their ability to objectively view the narrative and the story that's actually being told.

People want to like Sandor Cleggane, but he is not a main character of the story Martin is telling. He has just enough background and personality move Arya's narrative along in a believable and interesting way. He's a soundboard for her maturation. He's not someone the story's about. You get everything you need, everything that makes him cool, in the framework of the story. Fans asking for more are letting their own fan sensibilities cloud their ability to see the story for what it is.
 

Nickrb

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I don't disagree with your analysis. I think we are saying some of the same things but I am in the trees and you are looking at the forest.

My original point was that sometimes the non-POV characters are second class citizens in the books, but that the show is not restricted by this storytelling boundary condition.
 

Taiso

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I don't disagree with your analysis. I think we are saying some of the same things but I am in the trees and you are looking at the forest.

My original point was that sometimes the non-POV characters are second class citizens in the books, but that the show is not restricted by this storytelling boundary condition.

Well, they really ARE second class citizens. The story, the fundamental building blocks of the saga, just aren't about them. They're just there to help move things along.

There is a reason they are secondary characters, and that means they just don't matter as much. They only hold equal value in the fans' hearts. Martin may enjoy expanding on these characters to give the world and its character dynamics a more interesting dimension, but they're not the story and that is not the story that the source is telling.

I don't mind the tV show's expansion of secondary characters until it fucks with the stories of the important characters and I see the important characters being shoved to the side so that we can watch Oberyn Martell chew scenery with his illegitimate companion and their forty whores. Valuable minutes in an already shorter than average per episode season all gone to waste so HBO can fill a tit quota.
 

Nickrb

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I don't mind the tV show's expansion of secondary characters until it fucks with the stories of the important characters and I see the important characters being shoved to the side so that we can watch Oberyn Martell chew scenery with his illegitimate companion and their forty whores. Valuable minutes in an already shorter than average per episode season all gone to waste so HBO can fill a tit quota.

Tit quota - fine, I agree. But Oberyn Martell is one of the most badass and interesting characters in the story.

Anyway, I don't see how the show can pack all of the necessary events into this last episode, they are either gonna do a really cursory job or save some things for next season.
 
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evil wasabi

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Why do people say things like Oberyn was so badass, or interesting? I thought he was okay. The show made him look cooler because Pedro played his role well. Otherwise, he's just a typical Dornishman, whose purpose was just to inflict deadly wounds on a man for fucking the Dornish woman he loved, so hard that she split in half.
 

Taiso

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Why do people say things like Oberyn was so badass, or interesting? I thought he was okay. The show made him look cooler because Pedro played his role well. Otherwise, he's just a typical Dornishman, whose purpose was just to inflict deadly wounds on a man for fucking the Dornish woman he loved, so hard that she split in half.

This is why I say people attribute storyline value to characters because they like them, not because that value exists.

It's similar to the phenomenon that has some Star Wars fans sucking Boba Fett's dick. Although it's not completely identical; characters like Oberyn Martell and Sandor Cleggane affect the story simply by being who they are more than Boba ever affected Star Wars.

I don't have a problem with people liking secondary characters. But they are secondary characters. They shouldn't be taking necessary minutes away from the characters that the story is really about.

The TV version of Bron is a PERFECT example of what a secondary character should be. Likeable, distinct, having his own life and occasionally coming in to the story when it seems like there's a good reason for him to have screen time.
 

norton9478

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Boba Fett was nothing more than a scheme to sell more toys.
 

evil wasabi

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This is why I say people attribute storyline value to characters because they like them, not because that value exists.

It's similar to the phenomenon that has some Star Wars fans sucking Boba Fett's dick. Although it's not completely identical; characters like Oberyn Martell and Sandor Cleggane affect the story simply by being who they are more than Boba ever affected Star Wars.

I don't have a problem with people liking secondary characters. But they are secondary characters. They shouldn't be taking necessary minutes away from the characters that the story is really about.

The TV version of Bron is a PERFECT example of what a secondary character should be. Likeable, distinct, having his own life and occasionally coming in to the story when it seems like there's a good reason for him to have screen time.

I feel like everyone on the show is suddenly a secondary or tertiary character except for Grey Worm. sheesh.
 

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Almost an hour of bodies dropping.

Well that was entertaing.
 

Lastblade

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It was rather boring. A bunch of random people killing each other before Jon Snow joins in. Next episode will be epic.
 

norton9478

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I expected them to tie up the loose ends in Kings Landing tonight, Wall shit Next week.

Episode 9 tends to be the episode where major characters get killed off.
 

Taiso

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Too much Sam and Gilly (although I DO like them in the show.)

Not enough Ghost killing people and fighting beside Jon. HBO really needs to just spend the money and have Ghost in more shots with Jon. Fucking misers. Give us more of the cool shit.

Seeing the giants and the mastodon were awesome, and I think it played off very well in the TV setting. Seeing a few more of them would have been even more awe inspiring, but I think it was effective enough.

Scene with Gren and his men at the gate reciting their vows when the giant was rushing in was pretty awesome.

Scene with the anchor sweeping wildlings off the wall was amazing, probably the coolest single action shot in the whole episode. They really conveyed the weight and reach of that chain.

Ser Alliser Thorne was an oddly sympathetic character in this episode. I'm kind of glad for it. He admitted Jon was right about everything but he didn't turn into a big pussy at the end. He proved to the audience that despite how much of a hardass he was being to 'Lord Snow', there are reasons he believed what he believed and backed up his claims by showing his experience and intensity.

The kid killing Ygritte was a really nice surprise.

I'm glad Janos Slynt wasn't killed by some random wildling. When they showed him running away, I was expecting him to turn a corner and get gutted. Would have robbed the audience of a much cooler scene later on.

Jon Snow finally had his moment to shine, show what a bad ass swordsman he was, what a natural born leader he is and he showed that he actually learned from his near death at Crastor's Keep. Rather than fumble for a solution against the Thenn when he got disarmed, he improvised and won the fight.

Kit Harrington finally got a chance to do more than look glum and pout. He came across as an effective commander and skilled warrior in this episode. It was good that finally, four seasons in, the TV version figured out how to show the audience some of the qualities that book readers have been seeing about Jon from the very beginning. They need to keep it going with Jon and Kit.

Next week is going to be really packed. I am really pumped about this show for the first time this year. I hope its an extended episode, but even if it's not it'
s going to fly by really, really fast.
 

evil wasabi

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There is still a lot of siege left before this book concludes, so I figure Jon will kept on ice until next year. I don't know what the general reaction was, but I feel like the general audience wants more courtesans, soft porn, and flowery language. There was no way the finale cannot end the way, uh, Taiso and I expect it to.

I pray that they don't waste any more time with Ramsey and Reek. Leave that shit for the middle of next year.
 

Taiso

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There is still a lot of siege left before this book concludes, so I figure Jon will kept on ice until next year. I don't know what the general reaction was, but I feel like the general audience wants more courtesans, soft porn, and flowery language. There was no way the finale cannot end the way, uh, Taiso and I expect it to.

I pray that they don't waste any more time with Ramsey and Reek. Leave that shit for the middle of next year.

After how the episode ended with a fade to white, I presumed that was it for the north this year but the previews of the next episode showed Jon talking to Manse Rayder, so I have to presume we're not done with Lord Snow this season yet.

I agree. No more Ramsay and Theon. It would be such a waste of valuable time to show them. What they end up doing would be a GREAT opening for next year, though.

I'm expecting the last episode to have all of this:

Jon
Arya
Tyrion
Daenerys

I expect we'll see a bit of Stannis and I would be shocked if the season didn't end with a crossbow and a gold chain.
 

evil wasabi

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I would like to see the episode open with Tyrion, giving him a chance to reflect his folly of putting his life in the hands of a snake.

That would make the ending resonate even stronger, having ones life in the hands of an imp.
 

evil wasabi

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the worst paced episode in the entire series, compensated by key highlight moments. Still it ended up becoming a metaphor for Tywin's scene.
 
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