Why haven't any of you doll fuckers started a Game of Thrones topic?

[Taiso]

When you frame it like that, it's a nice exploration into the prism of humanity. However, the biggest takeaway I have from the episode is that Jon Snow is a greater failure now than after the battle of winterfell, and after the battle of the bastards, and I am not sure he ever won anything, other than the hearts of men, because we are able to see who really won the battles.

LoneSage posts are always suspect of being lifted from somewhere else, so responding directly runs the risk of giving him material to take back to some other site and post there, looking smart. He's the littlefinger of this site.

RE: Jon

It depends on what you consider victory and under what circumstances.

For me, the Iron Throne has never mattered It is, as I've said and I'm fairly certain these are Martin's intentions as well, it represents everything awful about humanity.. The lie that Westeros has been sold is that there can be such a thing as a 'good monarch'. One can rule justly and fairly, but one will still have to be a tyrant from time to time to see their order preserved.

Jon wants nothing to do with any of that. He wants to live in a place where there is no war because everyone is of one mind to live in peace and harmony. The system the Starks live in has been stratified over thousands of years. For Jon, going somewhere to start a new and establish a new way of life, apart from a political system in which he can never truly gain what he would value as a 'victory', is the outcome he's been seeking. He was born, he believed, a bastard. But to discover he has a claim to being the most powerful person in Westeros means nothing to him. After living such a hard life, how could it? Becoming the king is validation of the very system that treated him so unfairly. Even if he changes the rules, he's just another tyrant imposing his will. But in the real north, where life is different, he can live among others communally and share what he has learned and grow with them.

Changing hearts and minds is the victory. Getting people to unite against a common foe despite their historic cultural differences is the victory. This could have been a real and lasting change, but it is the doom of men that they forget. So I disagree that Jon hasn't won anything. His victories, relative to his goals, are greater victories than any of the others in the entire series.

Clegannebowl was trash. I refuse to validate it.

 

[Taiso]

Quick follow up.

Although I believe Jon has won many personal victories, I would agree that he is still failing in other ways. We have yet to see it all play out and this, I believe, is a well conceived notion of the hero succeeding through failing.

He will play a tragic, but complicit, role in all of this calamity before realizing he can't fix what is, at its most base nature, inherently broken.

He can, in the en, save the world.

But not for himself.

He is the Frodo of this story.

And so he will journey somewhere far from the realms that serve to remind him of all the pain.

 

[evil wasabi]

RE: Jon

It depends on what you consider victory and under what circumstances.

For me, the Iron Throne has never mattered It is, as I've said and I'm fairly certain these are Martin's intentions as well, it represents everything awful about humanity.. The lie that Westeros has been sold is that there can be such a thing as a 'good monarch'. One can rule justly and fairly, but one will still have to be a tyrant from time to time to see their order preserved.

Jon wants nothing to do with any of that. He wants to live in a place where there is no war because everyone is of one mind to live in peace and harmony. The system the Starks live in has been stratified over thousands of years. For Jon, going somewhere to start a new and establish a new way of life, apart from a political system in which he can never truly gain what he would value as a 'victory', is the outcome he's been seeking. He was born, he believed, a bastard. But to discover he has a claim to being the most powerful person in Westeros means nothing to him. After living such a hard life, how could it? Becoming the king is validation of the very system that treated him so unfairly. Even if he changes the rules, he's just another tyrant imposing his will. But in the real north, where life is different, he can live among others communally and share what he has learned and grow with them.

Changing hearts and minds is the victory. Getting people to unite against a common foe despite their historic cultural differences is the victory. This could have been a real and lasting change, but it is the doom of men that they forget. So I disagree that Jon hasn't won anything. His victories, relative to his goals, are greater victories than any of the others in the entire series.

Clegannebowl was trash. I refuse to validate it.

There wasn't a battle of the bastards in the books, right? I don't remember it. I feel like last I read, Theon was at the wall, with Stannis and Sansa, and Ramsey still lives. So I am not 100% sure whether GRRM wanted Jon to go this way, where the only logical route is to retake the black. But the show definitely has Jon ruled by his toxic upbringing, the idea of being a bastard, and the fucked-up idea that he should take the black as an innocent teenager (while most other people in the Nights Watch were criminals and failures). Really, this is the failure of Eddard and his shitty wife Cat, who George appropriately gave us as a villain later on. But the idea of Jon's victories being great are in fact tempered by the fact he has been groomed to be a complete fucking loser.

 

[evil wasabi]

Quick follow up.

Although I believe Jon has won many personal victories, I would agree that he is still failing in other ways. We have yet to see it all play out and this, I believe, is a well conceived notion of the hero succeeding through failing.

He will play a tragic, but complicit, role in all of this calamity before realizing he can't fix what is, at its most base nature, inherently broken.

He can, in the en, save the world.

But not for himself.

He is the Frodo of this story.

And so he will journey somewhere far from the realms that serve to remind him of all the pain.

Who is Gollum?

we know who Sam is.

 

[Taiso]

Who is Gollum?

we know who Sam is.

Well, if there's a Gollum in this story, I'd say it's Dany since the Iron Throne can be the placeholder for the One Ring due to its corrupting influence.

 

[evil wasabi]

Well, if there's a Gollum in this story, I'd say it's Dany since the Iron Throne can be the placeholder for the One Ring due to its corrupting influence.

the precious....

 

[Taiso]

There wasn't a battle of the bastards in the books, right? I don't remember it. I feel like last I read, Theon was at the wall, with Stannis and Sansa, and Ramsey still lives. So I am not 100% sure whether GRRM wanted Jon to go this way, where the only logical route is to retake the black. But the show definitely has Jon ruled by his toxic upbringing, the idea of being a bastard, and the fucked-up idea that he should take the black as an innocent teenager (while most other people in the Nights Watch were criminals and failures). Really, this is the failure of Eddard and his shitty wife Cat, who George appropriately gave us as a villain later on. But the idea of Jon's victories being great are in fact tempered by the fact he has been groomed to be a complete fucking loser.

The last thing that happened to Jon in the books was that he was assassinated and bleeding out after Wanwan (who I believe Errel warged into after jumping from Ghost) was going crazy at Castle Black. So no Battle of the Bastards yet, and even though I have no facts to back this up I believe that Stannis Baratheon is going to take Winterfell with help from young Robert and the Vale.

In the books, I also have to believe that Ned was doing the right thing in protecting Jon's identity while raising him with all the privileges entitled to a true son of noble birth. In the north, they don't have to worry about traditional Westerosi cultural class systems. Jon going to the wall is going to be painted as a way to protect his identity and move him further from the intrigues at King's Landing, especially with Robert Baratheon sniffing around. Lyanna Stark only wanted her son to live, and it would make sense that she would want him to live free of the bloody circumstances under which he was born. I don't think Ned ever had any intentions for Jon to seize his birthright, either. I think they both just wanted him to live and make his own choices. They even warned him that taking the Black was a rash decision but at some point, in that kind of world, you have to let people of adult age make adult decisions.

Although I wouldn't discredit, entirely, the notion that life was unfair to Jon and that even House Stark had a role to play in it, if for no other reason than bending to cultural forces that dictated the concessions they must give.

 

[LoneSage]

Ned was naive.

 

[Taiso]

Ned was naive.

Yeah, that's kind of why this story happened.

His simple northern ways where life was plainly lived were an ill fit for the intrigues of King's Landing.

Even Sansa knows that Stark men that go south don't fare well at court.

Read up on the Hour of the Wolf, which was after the Dance of the Dragons (yet another succession war between Targaryens over the Iron Throne).

In it, the victorious Aegon III asked Clegan Stark to be his Hand and render judgement on those who he felt betrayed him.

What followed was six days of executions at Stark's hand.

After that, Stark went back to the north, abdicating his position. He never intended to stay there because he knew these old Valyrian ways were unsavory but because his family had sworn to do homage to the Targaryen kings when Aegon I began his conquest of Westeros, the old pact must be honored.

So he did his duty and got out before it became a bigger problem. It is one of my favorite parts of the history of Westeros.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hour_of_the_Wolf

 

[evil wasabi]

The last thing that happened to Jon in the books was that he was assassinated and bleeding out after Wanwan (who I believe Errel warged into after jumping from Ghost) was going crazy at Castle Black. So no Battle of the Bastards yet, and even though I have no facts to back this up I believe that Stannis Baratheon is going to take Winterfell with help from young Robert and the Vale.

In the books, I also have to believe that Ned was doing the right thing in protecting Jon's identity while raising him with all the privileges entitled to a true son of noble birth. In the north, they don't have to worry about traditional Westerosi cultural class systems. Jon going to the wall is going to be painted as a way to protect his identity and move him further from the intrigues at King's Landing, especially with Robert Baratheon sniffing around. Lyanna Stark only wanted her son to live, and it would make sense that she would want him to live free of the bloody circumstances under which he was born. I don't think Ned ever had any intentions for Jon to seize his birthright, either. I think they both just wanted him to live and make his own choices. They even warned him that taking the Black was a rash decision but at some point, in that kind of world, you have to let people of adult age make adult decisions.

Although I wouldn't discredit, entirely, the notion that life was unfair to Jon and that even House Stark had a role to play in it, if for no other reason than bending to cultural forces that dictated the concessions they must give.

Ned Stark: My son saw you with him.
Cersei Lannister: Do you love your children?
Ned Stark: With all my heart.
Cersei Lannister: No more than I love mine.
Ned Stark: And they're all Jaime's.
Cersei Lannister: Thank the gods. In the rare event Robert leaves his whores long enough to stumble drunken into my bed, I finish him off in other ways. In the morning, he doesn't remember.
Ned Stark: You've always hated him!
Cersei Lannister: Hated him? I worshipped him! Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. And that night, he crawled on top of me, stinking of wine, and did what he did, what little he could do, and whispered in my ear, "Lyanna". Your sister was a corpse, I was a living girl, and he loved her more than me!
Ned Stark: When the king returns from his hunt, I will tell him the truth. You must be gone by then, you and your children; I won't have their blood on my hands. Go as far away as you can with as many men as you can, because wherever you go, Robert's wrath will follow you.
Cersei Lannister: And what of my wrath, Lord Stark? You should have taken the realm for yourself. Jaime told me about the day King's Landing fell. He was sitting on the Iron Throne, and you made him give it up. All you needed to do was climb the steps yourself … such a sad mistake.
Ned Stark: I've made many mistakes in my life, but that wasn't one of them.
Cersei Lannister: Oh, but it was. When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.

I liked this scene a lot because the very notion that Eddard could have taken the throne but did not, even though it would have meant that a better king rule, is part of the reason Jon is such a colossal pussy. Ned didn't want it either, and the result of his refusal was that a lecherous drunk got the throne - and his focus, when sober, was to kill the children of the family he usurped. Robert Baratheon was a shit king because he lacked vigilence and a respect for the duty he wrested; like Cersei, who never seemed to accept the duty of the ruler to the people, but just wanted its graces. And this is part of why Varys is willing to "take the big risk" and lose his life for Jon, but ultimately, a mistake, because Jon still needs to be conditioned to get past the failure grooming of the Stark men.

 

[Taiso]

Jon not wanting the Iron Throne is the victory.

Varys still putting stock in the Iron Throne is a bigger problem. He believes that the realms of men can be served through it. It is an inherently vile thing and, as both real and Westerosi history have shown us, 'good' rule always gives way to 'bad'. Jon could only rule 'justly' for as long as he lived. Maybe even his heir would do the same.

But honestly, shouldn't it be a consensus that chooses the leader and not birthright?

That is why Jon is the only good leader in this entire story. He's the only one that doesn't put stock in old, corrupt modes of administration.

No set of rules, no matter how complex and well meaning they are, are perfect.

Jon hasn't had the epiphany yet, but his brain already knows this.

 

[evil wasabi]

Jon not wanting the Iron Throne is the victory.

Varys still putting stock in the Iron Throne is a bigger problem. He believes that the realms of men can be served through it. It is an inherently vile thing and, as both real and Westerosi history have shown us, 'good' rule always gives way to 'bad'. Jon could only rule 'justly' for as long as he lived. Maybe even his heir would do the same.

But honestly, shouldn't it be a consensus that chooses the leader and not birthright?

That is why Jon is the only good leader in this entire story. He's the only one that doesn't put stock in old, corrupt modes of administration.

No set of rules, no matter how complex and well meaning they are, are perfect.

Jon hasn't had the epiphany yet, but his brain already knows this.

Asking if consensus should determine leadership is a bit of a tangent, but I guess. If it wasn't for the threat to survival in Rome, the people would not have asked Cincinatus to save them, but in order to do so, he took complete power, and by his benevolence, he returned the power to the senate and then went back to his farm. But this wasn't something brought to a vote on either end. So here we would definitely see people want Jon Snow to save them, and I think he will, and then return to the wall to tend to his wildlings.

And maybe the story is going to offer Westeros as a conversion from absolute monarchy to republic, with the seven kingdoms providing their representatives, Bran, Tyrion, Davos, Bronn of High Garden, and Tormund lord of the Emerald Isle.

 

[Taiso]

One of the literary strengths of A Song of Ice and Fire has been its tangible representation of political realism. But I think it's done so in cautionary fashion and not as a virtue of the story.

Everyone, even the readers, believe that the system can be made to work if you just put the right person in charge. But I think, rather than Jon failing, this is the reader's failure to recognize the story being told. Extolling the virtues of the Iron Throne's potential for good is akin to believing the One Ring can be responsibly used. Granted, there are certain physical and mystical properties that don't equate to a narrative equivalency but in a literary sense, they are the same thing. And even Varys, who has the best of intentions, is paving the way to hell by believing that betraying Dany in favor of Jon is the right choice. He is being unsavory in pursuit of a savory goal to put a savory person on an unsavory throne. It's a self defeating proposition.

He loves the potentiality that order can effect on world peace but so, too, did Boromir believe the One Ring could be used and then put aside when it was done.

The Long Night was one existential threat to life. The Iron Throne is another.

 

[evil wasabi]

One of the literary strengths of A Song of Ice and Fire has been its tangible representation of political realism. But I think it's done so in cautionary fashion and not as a virtue of the story.

Everyone, even the readers, believe that the system can be made to work if you just put the right person in charge. But I think, rather than Jon failing, this is the reader's failure to recognize the story being told. Extolling the virtues of the Iron Throne's potential for good is akin to believing the One Ring can be responsibly used. Granted, there are certain physical and mystical properties that don't equate to a narrative equivalency but in a literary sense, they are the same thing. And even Varys, who has the best of intentions, is paving the way to hell by believing that betraying Dany in favor of Jon is the right choice. He is being unsavory in pursuit of a savory goal to put a savory person on an unsavory throne. It's a self defeating proposition.

He loves the potentiality that order can effect on world peace but so, too, did Boromir believe the One Ring could be used and then put aside when it was done.

The Long Night was one existential threat to life. The Iron Throne is another.

Was the Long Night necessary to see the end of the Iron Throne?

And GRRM is a self professed biggest Tolkien fan, and specifically talked about how the LoR books focus on the band of heroes and he is more interested the band of morally gray; while also talking about Boromir's fall from grace.

 

[norton9478]

I suppose they take apart the iron throne and everything goes on a libertarian/anarchist bent.

But that scenario might be a bit hopeful as this is turning into a greek tragedy.

 

[Neorebel]

 

[Taiso]

Was the Long Night necessary to see the end of the Iron Throne?

And GRRM is a self professed biggest Tolkien fan, and specifically talked about how the LoR books focus on the band of heroes and he is more interested the band of morally gray; while also talking about Boromir's fall from grace.

I think that the Iron Throne is being promoted as this valuable thing because Martin specifically wants to eventually point out that everyone fell for the illusion of its worth.

But this is a world with politics and class systems set in stone except for when people betray and murder each other to get ahead.

Meanwhile, the small folk continue to suffer.

And because there is such a 'premium' on ruling over others, everyone just pays into a system that is built on suffering, conquest and misery. And the only way to rise is to climb the ladder of chaos. Littlefinger is the emptome of everything wrong with humanity in this series.

Jon may not have an answer for this. It's not like he's going to come up and say 'I know how we can do this better.' He doesn't ever say that. What he says is 'we need to put our differences aside to deal with a bigger problem and when that's over, maybe we can agree to at least stop killing each other.'

Jon's purpose isn't even, specifically, to destroy the Iron Throne. But by denying it, he's already on a smarter path than literally EVERYONE ELSE in this story that isn't living north of the Wall.

Now, given that this is a world of systemic suffering and violence and everyone believes it inevitable, it would take some kind of overarching threat that is larger than just another day of living under a tyrant's heel to get people on the same page and realize that maybe they don't need an Iron Throne.

So yeah, I believe some kind of existential threat would be required to truly break the wheel, which is something no conqueror bent on seizing power could ever do. No matter how 'good' you believe them to be.

 

[HornheaDD]

So apparently these two idiots that are shitting all over GoT have now been selected to butt fuck the next star wars trilogy.

Even more reason to not watch em.

 

[smokehouse]

So apparently these two idiots that are shitting all over GoT have now been selected to butt fuck the next star wars trilogy.

Even more reason to not watch em.

I heard that...oh well. I'd say I'm surprised...but honestly, I'm not. Disney is going to buttfuck Star Wars into oblivion.

 

[NeoSneth]

I heard that...oh well. I'd say I'm surprised...but honestly, I'm not. Disney is going to buttfuck Star Wars into oblivion.

Yeah. I'm waiting for a LootBox level of buttfucking from Disney. I dont know how, but they'll find a way. The EU can be one of the more interesting aspects of Star Wars. It will just be more Jedi nonsense tho.

Tyrion is gonna be the queen slayer. Just a wild prediction. Iron throne will be dissolved into a government.

 

[HornheaDD]

Well it at least makes it watchable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCHlCiB98N4&feature=youtu.be

 

[evil wasabi]

D&D can’t be worse at Star Warz than the guys who made the last 7 movies.

 

[smokehouse]

I'll be honest, I watched the episode again last night...it was ok. I honestly feel it was one of the better ones.

The golden company getting roasted? Yeah, don't mind this one bit. They were meant to be fodder, I'm ok with that. They presented them as this formidable force, and the queens ace in the hole given't the north's diminished forces. For them to get smeared like shit across the floor was rather amusing, it showed the futility of the queen's resistance.


Sandor's fate didn't bother me much, I guess he's served his use and there's really no other ending that would be pleasing for him. His goal was to kill his brother and he accomplished it. I didn't even mind Arya going with him to the very last. I feel the Sandor was more than happy to have her with him until he realized that it would 100% mean her death and he didn't realize that until he saw the dragon torching the castle.

Cersie's fate is still complete shit. I'd like to know what they writer's feel we, the viewing audience, were supposed to feel. Pity? Empathy? If was a disingenuous moment that felt fake and limp. After years of watching her be so horrible to others, her fate was a serious cop-out.

Jamie's stumbling into Euron? The first time, I thought "gee, how convenient"...but chewing on it, I guess I could see his landing up there. I used a little mind paste to fill in the cracks. Perhaps he knew that was a "secret" entrance into the castle and deliberately swam to it...who knows.

 

[smokehouse]

D&D can’t be worse at Star Warz than the guys who made the last 7 movies.

Agreed.

I'll go on record saying it, Episode I-III were shit. There is an underlying story line which is useful, the fall of the Jedi, the rise of the Empire, the fall of Anakin, the origins of Luke/Leah...but the presentation was complete trash. I have never defended them. Sadly, Episodes VII/VIII up'd the ante by having not only trashy movies...but this time with no underlying story line. If anyone would like to tell me the main plot points of Ep VII/VIII...I welcome it, because there's little there by what I've seen.

 

[NeoSneth]

Well it at least makes it watchable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCHlCiB98N4&feature=youtu.be

That wont last long on YT.

It does make the scene less believable for me. Why would Daenerys start to kill all the women and children? I guess if she was truly insane/mad it would make sense.... we will see.