Why haven't any of you doll fuckers started a Game of Thrones topic?

[smokehouse]

So the dragon issue isn't as you're describing it. Episode 5 has Tyrion approach Dany to inform her of a traitor in their mist. She says it's Jon (and gives a chilling explanation why), and Tyrion is like "no.... Varys". The idea is that Varys told Cersei that Dany would be taking her fleet to Dragonstone, and Cersei has Euron lie in wait. That's why they were able to take out Rheagal so easily. But sneak attacks don't work so well after the first time. So of course, Dany and Drogan were not going to be flying carelessly to Kings Landing after that. You have to also accept that most of the time nothing threatened the dragons, period. Their air superiority took for granted that anti-air existed in the form of magic ice javelins or ship mounted scorpion ballistas. So catching the dragons by surprise wasn't that surprising.

I guess that I can see that...I still feel it showed them as being rather glass-jawed though.

spoiler tags at this point is silly.

I had the least amount of issues with this episode for the season. All that anger and fear was finally released. Boom it exploded.
Things could have been done better, but they could have also been much worse.

Who's gonna kill the Mad Queen?

Probably Jon...or Arya, cause she's now the Last Jedi.

 

[Xavier]

I didn't like Dany's actions last night. I don't think I'll be re-watching the show. I hope somebody kills her before its all over.

You know what.. they should have made more episodes this season. Or make some episodes longer or different lengths to be able to complete a thought. The whole season feels rushed and forced.

Taiso those scorpions are slow they take five minutes to turn around and a couple minutes to load. I was wondering last week why she didn't circle back and take them all out.

 

[jro]

The episode, which in general was dumb, was (for me at least) best encapsulated by the start of the fight.

HA CHECK OUT OUR SWEET-ASS WALLS AND THEIR SCORPIONS THAT FIRE LIKE 30-FOOT BOLTS AND OUR GOLDEN COMPANY AND OUR IRON FL-



Oh shit how'd she get behind us.

 

[Kiel]

How is it that now dragon fire can cause stone to explode and two episodes ago hiding behind a pile of rocks was enough to keep you safe. This show is so god damn stupid...in a week we can go back to good shows at least

 

[norton9478]

Taiso those scorpions are slow they take five minutes to turn around and a couple minutes to load. I was wondering last week why she didn't circle back and take them all out.

Or why they didn't just torch them at night.

 

[norton9478]

Game of thrones has long been based on European History.

I guess the inspiration for last night's episode was the firebombing of Dresden.

 

[NeoSneth]

How is it that now dragon fire can cause stone to explode and two episodes ago hiding behind a pile of rocks was enough to keep you safe. This show is so god damn stupid...in a week we can go back to good shows at least

magic!
every time something doesnt make sense... it's cuz ... magic.

that dragon must have a fusion reactor in it's belly to be making that much energy....or a magic reactor. he had endless amounts of it.

 

[Xavier]

Game of thrones has long been based on European History.

I guess the inspiration for last night's episode was the firebombing of Dresden.

Lancaster Lanister
York Stark

I dunno ....are you sure?

 

[evil wasabi]

Game of thrones has long been based on European History.

I guess the inspiration for last night's episode was the firebombing of Dresden.

because Martin is from Europe?

 

[munchiaz]

last nights episode was hit and miss for me. Favorite part was when grey worm threw his spear into the red keep guard while his back was turned.Also I'm guessing the focus more on Arya as opposed to Jon, is because they want it to be some surprise that Jon takes out Danny. But I think most people know thats going to happen. I haven't read any of the books, so I'm just basing this stuff purely from the TV show. I also didn't look into that list of spoilers that was released. Its just the writing on the wall at this point. The Celgan brother fight lasted too long, but when the mountain killed Cersi's hand I laughed hard, and when the hound was telling his brother to die, i though that was neat.

Overall, it was a okay episode, but the show is just going down hill. Worse part about it is the dialog has just been awful. Like we know this is the last season, but the characters on the show shouldn't act like it is.

 

[ookitarepanda]

How is it that now dragon fire can cause stone to explode and two episodes ago hiding behind a pile of rocks was enough to keep you safe. This show is so god damn stupid...in a week we can go back to good shows at least

I'm going to file that under:
1) How can ballistas have a huge dex buff in one episode and then not do anything in the next episode
2) How could The Mountain control himself around The Hound last season but not in this one
3) How can Jaime not manage to sneak past a traveling army but he barely gets noticed at King's Landing by all of the guards
4) How can Varys have little birds who can smuggle the Seven Kingdoms' Most-Wanted a few seasons ago, but can't get himself clear of Dragonstone while he tries to poison Dany
5) How can Davos hold a grudge against Tyrion for the Blackwater but be willing to assist with treason now
...

 

[evil wasabi]

I'm going to file that under:
1) How can ballistas have a huge dex buff in one episode and then not do anything in the next episode
2) How could The Mountain control himself around The Hound last season but not in this one
3) How can Jaime not manage to sneak past a traveling army but he barely gets noticed at King's Landing by all of the guards
4) How can Varys have little birds who can smuggle the Seven Kingdoms' Most-Wanted a few seasons ago, but can't get himself clear of Dragonstone while he tries to poison Dany
5) How can Davos hold a grudge against Tyrion for the Blackwater but be willing to assist with treason now
...

1) the ballistas were never a great idea. They worked in episode 4 because Euron had the element of surprise on his side with the information from Varys.
2) bad writing.
3) chaos is a ladder, but he could have used the secret entrance to the keep, if the showrunners read the books.
4) networking takes time
5) Davos is a shitty character who is just hanging on to be voted onto the new small counsel.

 

[HornheaDD]

because Martin is from Europe?

Is he? For real I don't know. I always thought he was American.

 

[evil wasabi]

Is he? For real I don't know. I always thought he was American.

He's from New Jersey.

 

[Taiso]

Martin was born in Bayonne, NJ, in 1948 He is an American, and I believe he declares himself as such.

His feudal fantasy story stems from his love for the European middle ages, specifically his interest in the 100 Years War and the Wars of the Roses, primarily fought between the houses of Lancaster and York, two descendant lines from the Plantagenet line (Henry II, Richard I, John I, Henry III, Edward I, Edward II, Edward III, Richard II).

The question of succession arose when Edward III's son Edward the Black Prince died many years after having been declared the next in line of succession. After the Black Prince died, his son Richard II was next in line. Richard II was kind of a shitty king and was deposed by the son of the Black Prince's younger brother John of Gaunt, Henry of Bolingbroke. He would be renamed Henry IV, would be the father of the famous Henry V, who married then king of France's daughter Catherine of Valois in order to end the wars between the kingdoms of England and France after the battle of Agincourt. Their son, Henry VI, was declared to be the king of both England and France in his minority after Henry V died of dysenterey (I believe), but the French decided that it wasn't such a good idea after the fact. Also, the English magnates that were running the country while waiting for Henry VI to age into the role pretty much had their way with the policy of England, walking the fine line of abusing the system without breaking the rules of Magna Carta. Anyway, France's withdrawal from the agreement led to further wars between the two and this was the time period that Joan of Arc was doing her thing. Henry VI did eventually achieve the throne but he was kind of a crazy old codger and a weak king that had led the country into financial ruin, unable to undo the damage the magnates had done in his minority and still very susceptible to their influences. That was when Edward IV usurped the throne and he was of the line of York. After he died, his brother Richard III seized the throne when it should have gone to Edward's elder son, which led to the 'princes in the tower' and their likely execution while held prisoner in the Tower of London, an event which remains shrouded in mystery to this day; there is a ton of speculation but no facts regarding their disappearance. A very cold case if ever their was one. Eventually, Henry Tudor, who had some Lancastrian blood in him (but I don't recall how the lineage worked) took the throne when he defeated Richard III at the Battle of Bosworth Field and was crowned Henry VII afterwards.

Alll of this forms the basis for Martin's desire to tell a fantasy version of this story.

Also, he has stated on many occasions that Ivanhoe by Sir Walter Scott (who also wrote Rob Roy, among others), is his favorite novel of all time. It is truly a masterpiece in my opinion, holds up marvelously to this day and is well worth a read.

Understanding these things about Martin helps you to understand how he crafts ASoIF.

Yes, that was all from memory. I am also a huge fan of history.

 

[Xavier]

The Tudors and Shakespeare did a total PR smear campaign on Richard the III. They must have wanted to make sure that everybody was ready to move on from 300+ years of Plantagenet rule.

He killed Hastings who seemed loyal to him for no apparent reason, other than that I'm not sure I believe any of the other vile things he's been accused of to become king.

As a lord he was a role model and completely loyal to his brother and family. How could he go from being good guy to bad guy back to good guy so quickly? He would be about the first person in humanity to do so. I know I would be like oh well my soul is eternally damned now, may as well keep going down that path.

 

[Taiso]

There is certainly an argument to be made in favor of Richard III passing a contemporary purity test. Smear campaigns were commonly employed, then as now, and it's entirely possible that he was never the villain that history has long made him out to be.

I would say that I don't really favor one opinion over another except as it regards the Princes in the Tower. If they didn't die by his hand, then they were killed by someone else and he went along with it, starved to death and then their fate hidden from the world or they were released into their mother's care and two other children swapped places with them while the originals fled.

The only reason I consider that last theory fiction is because I have a hard time believing their escape from England would go completely unnoticed and that, at no point, they wouldn't try to raise an army. Then again, truth is stranger than fiction and when you read about actual history and things that really happened, you almost can't believe it was real.

Thomas Beckett's murder, for example. That is a scene that would perfectly fit in A Song of Ice and Fire but if you told someone it really happened absent its infamous and monumental importance to English politics in the late 12th century, you almost wouldn't believe it.

 

[evil wasabi]

The white horse was Captain Strickland’s it seems.

 

[LoneSage]

Shoulda saved Rhaegal's death for this episode.

Bells ring, Dany stops. Then Euron shoots Rhaegal and that's when Dany goes berserker. Then give us a very satisfying scene where it shows Euron being exploded by dragonflame.

It also would have created conflict with the viewers. I think we would have had sympathy towards Dany and at least some understanding of why she did what she did.

 

[wyo]

How is it that now dragon fire can cause stone to explode and two episodes ago hiding behind a pile of rocks was enough to keep you safe. This show is so god damn stupid...in a week we can go back to good shows at least

King's Landing was an inside job!

 

[theMot]

yeah, but his wife bought him a replica helmet for The Hound.

He probably wears it when he fucks her.

 

[LoneSage]

The Hound has always been my favorite character, so in defense of the stupid Cleganebowl:

whether or not D&D intended it or not, it was definitely a metaphor for revenge gaining you nothing. Gregor had been dead for years, and by the time Sandor went to claim his revenge he got nothing. He stabbed him and tried everything to hurt Gregor, and nothing worked. In the end, he had to give up everything to get it.

I know in the books, most readers think Sandor is a changed man and that his character arc is finished. We shall see.

edit: stole this, sums it up

Jaime Season 3: I killed Aerys when he threatened to burn down King's Landing

Jaime Episode 2: I will fight for the living

Jaime Episode 5: I never liked the citizens anyway

 

[Taiso]

edit: stole this, sums it up

Jaime Season 3: I killed Aerys when he threatened to burn down King's Landing

Jaime Episode 2: I will fight for the living

Jaime Episode 5: I never liked the citizens anyway

What I'm noticing with the previous episode is that it was D&D's badly fumbled attempt at human regression. War, violence, rape, plunder...these things all represent the worst humanity has to offer and when we are engulfed by the fog of war, we all regress to base attitudes.

In the case of the characters on GoT, the message is that when we are afraid, we become reductive and are broken down to our most base instincts. For Dany, it's rage at what was taken from her. She's done many conquests but never one quite so destructive and after so many betrayals and disappointments. For Arya, she's back to that place she was at when Ned Stark was executed, a city too big for one scared little girl to be all alone. For Jaimie, it's the instinctive desire to be back with the woman she came into this world with. For Sandor, it's back to hating his brother. All of these inner conflicts are there within the characters leading up to this most recent episode but until they're there, among the salt and smoke, they don't bubble to the surface from primal realms within each of them.

Even Jon, feeling backed into a corner, is forced to execute one of his own men to stop him from raping a woman in the street, although in his case I feel that this is more Ned's lesson manifesting itself on screen than a base desire to do violence in the heat of conflict; he holds him at arm's length and gives him a moment to regain his senses, but when the soldier tries to attack him, he's forced to run him through. But this one simple act of virtue (defending a woman's honor) is, Jon knows, a pittance in the middle of all that bloodshed and he does the only thing he can do to salvage what remains of his conscience by pulling his men back out of it all. In a well written TV show, this sudden retreat would be questioned by Dany in the next episode. I would certainly expect Martin to have someone in the peanut gallery call Jon on it.

All of these ideas and literary concepts have tremendous merit. But anyone can come up with good ideas if they think long enough about it. It's how you implement them that matters.

Any idiot can say 'this happens and then this happens and then this happens'.

But if that's enough to make you happy, then you don't want someone to actually tell you a story. You just want someone to tell you what happens. But the best works spellbind us and enchant us. They get into our heads and our hearts because we believe in them on some level.

Jon's journey is the hero's journey. When this is all said and done, he will have gone north to the Wall in a naive belief that he is serving the Realms of Men by doing dutiful service. He got there and saw that the Wall was no better than any other place. He sought to make it better and died for it, which is in line with the monomyth and the death of the hero's immature self. Then he was restored and saw the world how it really was and he learned from it. He still made mistakes along the way but he operated from a more enlightened vantage. At the end, if the spoilers are to be believed, he will kill Dany, take the black and return to the Wall and the north, which is akin to the end of the hero's journey when the hero, now much wiser for his experiences, goes back 'home' to share his wisdom with his community and, hopefully, lead them to a brighter day.

ASoIF, I believe, intends to deliver us a very traditional hero's journey with Jon Snow but it is doing so in unexpected ways.

D&D, without Martin's work to go off of, have taken the wrong inspiration from the source. They are more fixated on the shocks, the surprises, the betrayals and double turns. Or maybe it's not them at all. Maybe it's HBO. In fact, I'd almost be more inclined to believe it's a corporate overlord meddling with creative intentions; it wouldn't be the first time. But whoever is at fault here, I don't expect any of them to ever step up and admit it.

 

[LoneSage]

taiso

respond to my cleganebowl thing about vengeance

thanks

 

[evil wasabi]

What I'm noticing with the previous episode is that it was D&D's badly fumbled attempt at human regression. War, violence, rape, plunder...these things all represent the worst humanity has to offer and when we are engulfed by the fog of war, we all regress to base attitudes.

In the case of the characters on GoT, the message is that when we are afraid, we become reductive and are broken down to our most base instincts. For Dany, it's rage at what was taken from her. She's done many conquests but never one quite so destructive and after so many betrayals and disappointments. For Arya, she's back to that place she was at when Ned Stark was executed, a city too big for one scared little girl to be all alone. For Jaimie, it's the instinctive desire to be back with the woman she came into this world with. For Sandor, it's back to hating his brother. All of these inner conflicts are there within the characters leading up to this most recent episode but until they're there, among the salt and smoke, they don't bubble to the surface from primal realms within each of them.

Even Jon, feeling backed into a corner, is forced to execute one of his own men to stop him from raping a woman in the street, although in his case I feel that this is more Ned's lesson manifesting itself on screen than a base desire to do violence in the heat of conflict; he holds him at arm's length and gives him a moment to regain his senses, but when the soldier tries to attack him, he's forced to run him through. But this one simple act of virtue (defending a woman's honor) is, Jon knows, a pittance in the middle of all that bloodshed and he does the only thing he can do to salvage what remains of his conscience by pulling his men back out of it all. In a well written TV show, this sudden retreat would be questioned by Dany in the next episode. I would certainly expect Martin to have someone in the peanut gallery call Jon on it.

All of these ideas and literary concepts have tremendous merit. But anyone can come up with good ideas if they think long enough about it. It's how you implement them that matters.

Any idiot can say 'this happens and then this happens and then this happens'.

But if that's enough to make you happy, then you don't want someone to actually tell you a story. You just want someone to tell you what happens. But the best works spellbind us and enchant us. They get into our heads and our hearts because we believe in them on some level.

Jon's journey is the hero's journey. When this is all said and done, he will have gone north to the Wall in a naive belief that he is serving the Realms of Men by doing dutiful service. He got there and saw that the Wall was no better than any other place. He sought to make it better and died for it, which is in line with the monomyth and the death of the hero's immature self. Then he was restored and saw the world how it really was and he learned from it. He still made mistakes along the way but he operated from a more enlightened vantage. At the end, if the spoilers are to be believed, he will kill Dany, take the black and return to the Wall and the north, which is akin to the end of the hero's journey when the hero, now much wiser for his experiences, goes back 'home' to share his wisdom with his community and, hopefully, lead them to a brighter day.

ASoIF, I believe, intends to deliver us a very traditional hero's journey with Jon Snow but it is doing so in unexpected ways.

D&D, without Martin's work to go off of, have taken the wrong inspiration from the source. They are more fixated on the shocks, the surprises, the betrayals and double turns. Or maybe it's not them at all. Maybe it's HBO. In fact, I'd almost be more inclined to believe it's a corporate overlord meddling with creative intentions; it wouldn't be the first time. But whoever is at fault here, I don't expect any of them to ever step up and admit it.

When you frame it like that, it's a nice exploration into the prism of humanity. However, the biggest takeaway I have from the episode is that Jon Snow is a greater failure now than after the battle of winterfell, and after the battle of the bastards, and I am not sure he ever won anything, other than the hearts of men, because we are able to see who really won the battles.

LoneSage posts are always suspect of being lifted from somewhere else, so responding directly runs the risk of giving him material to take back to some other site and post there, looking smart. He's the littlefinger of this site.