Connecticut Elementary School Shooting (AKA "Gun Control Debate" thread...)

NeoTheranthrope

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smokehouse

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Just leave the info out (with a disclaimer); reportedly the shooter didn't bring the AR with him into the school, he left it in the car (my conjecture: not working), what's more, on Tuesday before the attack on the school, he tried to buy another rifle at a gun shop, but due to Connecticut law, he was refused.
This info is UNCONFIRMED at this time.

http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/119364/No_AR15_Found_at_Sandy_Hook_Massacre/

Yeah...this vid was my previous post...

I'm just saying that with dozens of conflicting reports, still no mention of the other shooters/ accomplices, no credible eyewitness accounts, no video footage of the school and a coroner that can't answer the simplest of questions. None of it adds up.
 

BigFred

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hows the overall violent crime thing doing though. are people still getting murdered etc. or has the fact that guns aren't as easily available stopped all that crap or are guns just not being used soo problem solved as long as you ignore it if something bad happens that didn't involve a gun.

Well, crime in general is one thing that is impossible to stop. Fire-arm related violence (including fatalitys), have still continued but the overall rate of deaths is lower than before. Obviously non-gun related violence increased.
 

NeoTheranthrope

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Yeah...this vid was my previous post...

I'm just saying that with dozens of conflicting reports, still no mention of the other shooters/ accomplices, no credible eyewitness accounts, no video footage of the school and a coroner that can't answer the simplest of questions. None of it adds up.

Well, I wouldn't stake my reputation on it, but I feel it's better to have more info on the table than less, even if some of it turns out to be inaccurate later.

While I'd like to hear more from primary sources; I strongly suspect internecine conflict between the differing agendas of various Federal, State, County, and local agencies is mudding the waters and what little accurate information is available has been deliberately leaked as part of political chicanery to damage the position one camp or another.

So, at times like this, an old Regan-ism comes in handy: "Trust but verify."
 
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Karou

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Gun related violence rose and rapidly declined in the 80's. Our government took each mass shooting case seriously and restrictions were made tighter and tigher on fire-arm use.

From 1900-1980 - Firearm problems steadily rising.
1984
The Milperra Massacre or Milperra bikie shoot-out was a firearm battle between rival motorcycle gang members on 2 September (Father's Day) 1984, in Milperra, a south-western suburb of Sydney, New South Wales. The shootout had its roots in an intense rivalry that developed after a group of Comancheros broke away and formed the first Bandidos Motorcycle Club chapter in Australia. Seven people were killed and twenty-eight injured when the two groups clashed at Milperra. The event was a catalyst for significant changes to gun laws in New South Wales.

The Comancheros were notorious for carrying registered shotguns openly while riding. As a result of the massacre, the New South Wales Firearms and Dangerous Weapons Act 1973, which allowed registered owners the right to carry firearms in public, was subsequently amended to require "a good reason for the issue of a [firearm] licence".

1987
The Hoddle Street massacre was a spree killing that occurred on the evening of Sunday, 9 August 1987, in Hoddle Street, Clifton Hill, a suburb of Melbourne, Victoria, in Australia.
The Queen Street massacre was a spree-killing-suicide that occurred on 8 December 1987 at the Australia Post offices at 191 Queen Street in Melbourne, Victoria. The attack resulted in nine fatalities, including the perpetrator, and five injuries

The Victorian government acted quickly to introduce scricter gun laws but the Sporting Shooters Association led gun lobby arranged a march of 27,000 shooters through the streets of Melbourne in an effort to stop the proposed laws. Better laws were introduced into Victoria and to some extent these influenced the production of improved laws in other states. The march drew atention to the fact that organised shooters groups will oppose improved gun laws regardless of their necessity for public safety.

1991
The Strathfield massacre was a shooting rampage in Sydney, Australia on Saturday, 17 August 1991. The shooter was Wade Frankum, who killed himself as police arrived at the scene. The incident left eight dead and six wounded.

A few months before the massacre the NSW police minister Ted Pickering had introduced a new set of gun laws into NSW which well suited the gun lobby. Following the massacre the Police Commissioner put those laws on hold. By the end of the year the Select Committee had made its extensive report and the NSW parliament had decided on a replacement set of stricter gun laws to become operative early in 1992.

1996
The Port Arthur massacre of 28 April 1996 was a killing spree in which 35 people were killed and 23 wounded, mainly at the historic Port Arthur prison colony, a popular tourist site in south-eastern Tasmania, Australia. Martin Bryant, a 28-year-old from New Town, a suburb of Hobart, eventually pleaded guilty to the crimes and was given 35 life sentences without possibility of parole. He is now imprisoned in the Wilfred Lopes Centre near Risdon Prison.

This is the year everything changed. Our laws completely changed on this year. Here's a good article regarding these events and action taken afterwards. Published in 2000. http://guncontrol.org.au/2000/02/gun-politics-in-australia/

Quoted from the article:
A decade and a half ago the gun debate in Australia became distorted by US gun lobby thinking. Instead of discussion on shooter credentialisation and training, proper handling of guns and public safety the debate now often hinges on gun owners rights. It would be a tragedy if this change from functional to ideological dominates the future of gun politics in Australia. It would be an even greater tragedy if Australian society has to face the consequences of the weak laws which some leading gun clubs would have us accept.It is the desires of these Americanised gun clubs and their gun trading supporters that presents the Australian peace-loving population with a great political problem in the future.

http://guncontrol.org.au/2012/09/our-strict-gun-laws-have-saved-thousands-of-australian-lives/
the above link shows the rapid decline in firearm related violence since the new laws were introduced. Published in Septemeber this year.

Well, crime in general is one thing that is impossible to stop. Fire-arm related violence (including fatalitys), have still continued but the overall rate of deaths is lower than before. Obviously non-gun related violence increased.

Overall rate of death dropped from banning guns? What kind of witchcraft is that? Really though, what rate of death dropped? firearm related or crime related? Obviously old and sick people were unaffected and still died.
so as long as a gun isn't used in a murder or violent crime everyone will be okay?
 
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Yodd

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This is a classless act

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/25/us/new-york-gun-permit-map/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Yeah, there's a freedom of information act. And some states will list conceal carry permits publicly. But still

I wonder if the paper would change their tune if someone made an interactive map showing all paper employees' properties. Label summer homes as such.


While I am not a huge gun rights advocate, and I think gun control should be stricter, this is fucking absurd.


"Need a gun for some nefarious plot? Here is a list of places where you can steal a legally purchased firearm."


rolleyes_big.gif
 

BigFred

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Overall rate of death dropped from banning guns? What kind of witchcraft is that? Really though, what rate of death dropped? firearm related or crime related? Obviously old and sick people were unaffected and still died.
so as long as a gun isn't used in a murder or violent crime everyone will be okay?

What I meant was that we haven't had a single mass shooting since 1996.
 

68k

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While I am not a huge gun rights advocate, and I think gun control should be stricter, this is fucking absurd.


"Need a gun for some nefarious plot? Here is a list of places where you can steal a legally purchased firearm."


rolleyes_big.gif

or "Please do not break in to the following armed residences.."
 

Karou

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What I meant was that we haven't had a single mass shooting since 1996.

no mass shooting. well what replaced it then? probably harder to find than the 'Happy' news, but I would be surprised if other horrible things happened and didn't make big news-you know so you can feel safer
 

SouthtownKid

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no mass shooting. well what replaced it then? probably harder to find than the 'Happy' news, but I would be surprised if other horrible things happened and didn't make big news-you know so you can feel safer
I don't understand what you are trying to get at here. Are you suggesting that the reduction of mass shootings was probably merely replaced by mass knifings or mass pushings-out-of-windows? If so, stop typing.
 

evil wasabi

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no mass shooting. well what replaced it then?

would it be safe to say, based on statistical data, that the mean income for Australians has risen and that they are more prosperous as a nation than they were 20 years ago?
 

Karou

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I don't understand what you are trying to get at here. Are you suggesting that the reduction of mass shootings was probably merely replaced by mass knifings or mass pushings-out-of-windows? If so, stop typing.

No but I would guess that there probably has been some sort of mass murder or at least serial murders in Australia that was comitted with a replacement method/weapon to a gun. Maybe Fred can say that in fact there is a signifigant drop in the murder rate?
 

SouthtownKid

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No but I would guess that there probably has been some sort of mass murder or at least serial murders in Australia that was comitted with a replacement method/weapon to a gun
Maybe death by attack pigeon. Or maybe go into a crowded pedestrian area and leave banana peels everywhere. That kind of thing?

The thing is, if there were some replacement method to a mass shooting -- like knife, machete, bomb, whatever -- you'd be more likely to hear about THAT than about a shooting. Because it would be unusual. Your supposition that the news would try to keep it quiet so people would "feel safer" is asinine. The news isn't about making you feel safer. It's about generating a climate of fear to boost ratings. Everybody knows that.
 

BigFred

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No but I would guess that there probably has been some sort of mass murder or at least serial murders in Australia that was comitted with a replacement method/weapon to a gun. Maybe Fred can say that in fact there is a signifigant drop in the murder rate?

Why are you making me google this stuff for you?
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf

Read the last bullet point on page 16.
Since 1999, the number of murders has generally decreased by around three percent per year.

I guess page 18 shows what I think you were trying to get at. 40% of homicides in 2009/2010 were by "other means" ie poisoning etc. 39% were committed using knives and 13% were by firearms.

Despite all these figures, I'm sure they are likely to change this year dramatically. Victoria has been in the news pretty much non-stop regarding homicides. What you have to realise is that no nation is a Utopia, we have our own problems too.
 

norton9478

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Isn't it true that the residents of a house are more likely to be killed by guns if there is a gun in the household???
 

Karou

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Why are you making me google this stuff for you?
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf

Read the last bullet point on page 16.
Since 1999, the number of murders has generally decreased by around three percent per year.

I guess page 18 shows what I think you were trying to get at. 40% of homicides in 2009/2010 were by "other means" ie poisoning etc. 39% were committed using knives and 13% were by firearms.

Despite all these figures, I'm sure they are likely to change this year dramatically. Victoria has been in the news pretty much non-stop regarding homicides. What you have to realise is that no nation is a Utopia, we have our own problems too.

Sincere thanks Fred!
I apologize for becoming involved in this issue.I guess trying to suggest that the removal of guns from the society has actually very little to do with a persons well being or safety is wrong-my mistake. Tinfoil hat belief that a government could cover up or control or at least try to hush national news stories that didn't tell the story they wanted- like to not give the people who have given up their firearms to complain about. i.e. wtf is this Ihanded in my gun and now theres some fuck running around with hatchets for me to worry about-obviously it wouldn't be completely swept under the rug but its not like there isn't some influence-ratings pssh thats not where funding comes from.
 

SNKorSWM

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Would the gun(s) that endanger the residents of that household the most just happens to be the same one(s) that's in the household?
 

Dampfwalze

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I guess it's the americans goddamned right to own firearms and they should own much much more of them. In fact, every citizen should own at least one gun and if they don't want to carry one they should be forced by law to do so.
Everyone old enough to handle a weapon should allways carry one with them. This would make the USA to the most secure nation in the world and criminals would cease to exist, because they know that every victim carries a gun.
Peaceful days would be coming.
 

StevenK

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I guess it's the americans goddamned right to own firearms and they should own much much more of them. In fact, every citizen should own at least one gun and if they don't want to carry one they should be forced by law to do so.
Everyone old enough to handle a weapon should allways carry one with them. This would make the USA to the most secure nation in the world and criminals would cease to exist, because they know that every victim carries a gun.
Peaceful days would be coming.

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic here, and yes when you put it like that it does sound ridiculous. If I had to pick a side I would say that in the UK when they were banning pretty much all guns at first the gun enthusiasts were up in arms (no pun intended), but after it everyone quickly moved on. What I'm saying is I think the fear of losing guns would be much worse than the reality - its like giving up smoking, the idea scares you shitless when you are a smoker, when you actually quit you wonder what the fuss was about.

I would say though that arming everyone is basically a small scale example of the mutually assured destruction idea from the cold war. And as fucked up as it sounds, there's no denying that it worked, simple as that.

Final point I have is that all the Americans on here who are telling the non-americans to shove their opinions (such as this) up their arses, are right. Not my country, not my say. Though I would say that regardless of how many signatures you get to deport Piers Morgan, we will easily get more to keep him away :)
 

Yodd

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I guess it's the americans goddamned right to own firearms and they should own much much more of them. In fact, every citizen should own at least one gun and if they don't want to carry one they should be forced by law to do so.
Everyone old enough to handle a weapon should allways carry one with them. This would make the USA to the most secure nation in the world and criminals would cease to exist, because they know that every victim carries a gun.
Peaceful days would be coming.


lol

Wild, wild west, here we come!
 
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