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What anime are you watching?
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I'll have to check out the novels, thanks.
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Watched the Appleseed OVA, hadn't seen it in years and only really remembered the end. It's alright, nothing amazing. Has some pretty inconsistent animation quality and the story is pretty meh compared to the manga. Still it's not bad and there are a couple of fairly impressive scenes when where you can tell they put in some real effort. There's also just a lot of that late 80's anime charm and little cliche fun scenes. Enjoyable enough for what it is but it's a shame we didn't get a better adaptation of the manga back anime's heyday instead of the shitty CGI stuff we got later.
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Watched more Gundam:
War in Pocket: Little OVA that tells a fantastic story. Might be my favorite Gundam thing
Zeta: I miss some of the old characters, but otherwise rad AF. Ending is most depressing thing ever.
ZZ: WTF is this shit? It eventually becomes a decent show halfway through, but the first part is rough.
Char's Counterattack: Decent enough, that ending is complete bullshit. Crappy way to end the most important characters' story arcs, and completely ignoring Char's character development in the previous series. Battles and mechs are rad.
F91: It's a little bit of a mess but enjoyable. You can really tell this was written to be a series and not a movie, the pacing is all over the place. I really wish this was an OVA to give the story and characters some breathing room.
War in Pocket: Little OVA that tells a fantastic story. Might be my favorite Gundam thing
Zeta: I miss some of the old characters, but otherwise rad AF. Ending is most depressing thing ever.
ZZ: WTF is this shit? It eventually becomes a decent show halfway through, but the first part is rough.
Char's Counterattack: Decent enough, that ending is complete bullshit. Crappy way to end the most important characters' story arcs, and completely ignoring Char's character development in the previous series. Battles and mechs are rad.
F91: It's a little bit of a mess but enjoyable. You can really tell this was written to be a series and not a movie, the pacing is all over the place. I really wish this was an OVA to give the story and characters some breathing room.
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I just received the first two volumes of the Initial D omnibus, they’re great. The drawings of the cars are spot on and there’s some weirdness with the main characters love interest and her “daddy” not daddy paying her 300k yen per month for “visits”.
Solid series so far, I’ll definitely be looking to complete this series as the volumes are released.
Solid series so far, I’ll definitely be looking to complete this series as the volumes are released.
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I can't stand the movies, but I know you're not the only one to consider them superior to the TV series.
I consider Lalah's death the most important event in the UC timeline, personally. The Dakar speech is a great moment but to me, the eternal aspect of the newtype soul is the true message of the story, not the politics. That's why I consider Lalah's death the most important.
As for Tomino being manic depressive, whatever happened later on in the series' life is all well and good but without YAS, who truly understood how to tell that story better than Tomino ever could, the original series doesn't have any soul to speak of. And given Tomino's condition, it's a good thing YAS was there because it's clear Tomino needed a positive influence in his life. I know that his frustrations continued well beyond ZZ and into the era of F91 and 0083 (the latter of which he didn't work on), maybe reaching its peak with Victory Gundam, which is a better series than people give it credit for IMO.
I don't think Gundam exists without Tomino, but I also don't think it works at all without YAS. What I mean to say is that without YAS, I don't believe Gundam stays on track. His retelling of events with Gundm: the Origin (manga) is a vastly superior interpretation of the story that elevates it beyond the 'diamond in the rough' status the original series (and movies) enjoyed. It is a god tier manga. It's YAS showing us that he was able to pick it up, clean it off and present it with that glorious sheen he eventually came to realize it deserved. The anime for Origin is still pretty great but I haven't really hankered to go back and watch it. I've done three reads of the manga and it hasn't lost any of its potency for me.
I also enjoyed the Doan's Island movie very much. It had a lot of goofy moments but for an Amuro fan like myself, it was the perfect way for YAS to send off this chapter of his career. And I know people say 'it looks just like the TV show' but it really doesn't. However, the story feels like the original TV series and the 15 year old kid in me that saw the potency of that original story really appreciated YAS making something that had that same tone to it.
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I don't really disagree with that. I think Lalah's death is more central to Gundam's theme. But Dakar is the pivot point for the plot of the UC timeline, which is a different thing.
I do agree that The Origin is a superior, more polished and coherent telling of the story than either the movies or tv series. As for preferring the movies to the tv series, it's only because the movies have more of a focus and fleshed out presentation of the newtype concept. But Tomino's novels do that even better and more in depth than The Origin, which is why I prefer the novels over everything.
Victory is probably my second favorite Gundam series after Z, maybe tied with or even slightly above the original. It's definitely the lowest point of Tomino's depression though, after which he finally started getting help. But it ends the UC timeline at maybe the lowest point possible, with almost all hope for an impending evolution of humankind (which seemed so much closer during the Amuro/Char era) crushed, or at least delayed by centuries. Like if the neanderthals had successfully fought back and wiped out homo sapiens.
Victory and Turn-A (my fourth favorite Gundam series) say differently. Both are Tomino with no Yas in sight.
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I was saying that Gundam doesn't survive without YAS. Without his masterful perspective of the original story, which is still the only Gundam story that truly matters in terms of the fiction as far as I'm concerned, we don't even get Victory (which is a masterpiece in my opinion) or Turn A (which is probably the best Tomino has ever been as a creator).
I don't think YAS cares about anything other than the original story on a creative or artistic level. He's even said that after he was done with Gundam, he didn''t look back for 30 years. He just considered it a job and did the best he could on it. It was only after creators were telling him how much his work on Gundam inspired them that he began to think about the significance of the series and why it held such a fond place in the hearts of so many industry luminaries and fans. I think he, like me, sees the original series as a complete work on its own. I've never considered the rest of it essential viewing, except maybe CCA. That's probably why I don't really care much about the rest of it. I mean, it's fine. But the original series is the only one I've ever truly cared about or held close to my heart. I could never watch the rest of it and be okay with that. Except for Victory.
I wonder what YAS thinks of Zeta Define.
And all the Hathaway stuff, especially the movie. It's brilliant and while I don't feel it needs to exist, it's a wonderful, if tragic, coda for the original series. I have a suspicion that the ending will be changed for the movie trilogy (if we ever get the other two).
ONE MORE EDIT:
When I discuss Gundam I'm only ever talking about the original series. I know that Gundam could be seen as an umbrella for 'all the things' and that's a fair way to view it. But to me, there is only one Gundam story worth telling and that's the original one. That's why it's the only one I care about, if I'm being honest. Most of the rest, I can take or leave (Victory and Hathaway and CCA/Hi-Streamer/Beltorchika Children excepted). I'd also say that the opening of F91 is the Saving Private Ryan Normandy scene of Gundam in that it is the most intense and 'real' Gundam has ever felt. It is truly gripping. Just too bad the rest of the movie didn't live up to its opening sequence.
I don't think YAS cares about anything other than the original story on a creative or artistic level. He's even said that after he was done with Gundam, he didn''t look back for 30 years. He just considered it a job and did the best he could on it. It was only after creators were telling him how much his work on Gundam inspired them that he began to think about the significance of the series and why it held such a fond place in the hearts of so many industry luminaries and fans. I think he, like me, sees the original series as a complete work on its own. I've never considered the rest of it essential viewing, except maybe CCA. That's probably why I don't really care much about the rest of it. I mean, it's fine. But the original series is the only one I've ever truly cared about or held close to my heart. I could never watch the rest of it and be okay with that. Except for Victory.
I wonder what YAS thinks of Zeta Define.
And all the Hathaway stuff, especially the movie. It's brilliant and while I don't feel it needs to exist, it's a wonderful, if tragic, coda for the original series. I have a suspicion that the ending will be changed for the movie trilogy (if we ever get the other two).
ONE MORE EDIT:
When I discuss Gundam I'm only ever talking about the original series. I know that Gundam could be seen as an umbrella for 'all the things' and that's a fair way to view it. But to me, there is only one Gundam story worth telling and that's the original one. That's why it's the only one I care about, if I'm being honest. Most of the rest, I can take or leave (Victory and Hathaway and CCA/Hi-Streamer/Beltorchika Children excepted). I'd also say that the opening of F91 is the Saving Private Ryan Normandy scene of Gundam in that it is the most intense and 'real' Gundam has ever felt. It is truly gripping. Just too bad the rest of the movie didn't live up to its opening sequence.
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I don't know how that works, when he was only really involved on the first series/movies, and even then, wasn't a writer on the series/movies. He only did character designs on Z and F91. He didn't write anything on Gundam prior to The Origin in 2001. I don't know how you say Gundam doesn't survive the 20 years between Encounters In Space and The Origin without Yas, when he basically quit Gundam after 1982, other than a couple character design jobs.
I don't think he thinks anything about it. He's gone on record more than once as saying "Gundam" is only the original series/movie trilogy. He doesn't even like Z the tv series. He definitely does not like CCA.
This is the part of your thesis that confuses me, because Yas explicitly disagrees. He says that Newtypes are not the theme of Gundam. His interest was in depicting humanity as it is now, not the evolution into what humanity might become. The Newtype stuff was all Tomino.
Victory, Hathaway's Flash, and CCA/Beltorchika's Children all written by Tomino, with zero involvement from Yas. Hathaway's Flash originating as novels Tomino wrote before there even being a thought of animating them. Victory and CCA/Beltorchika's Children also being novelized by Tomino concurrent to animation production.
We both agree The Origin is a vastly superior telling of First Gundam than the tv show or movie trilogy. But I think you are attributing to Yas a level of influence over story and writing of the original tv series that just didn't exist. And I think the novel trilogy from 1979-1981 is still even better than The Origin.
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What I am saying is that without YAS, the first series doesn't turn out as good as it did. It needed him to give it structure and vision. If the first series fails, we don't have the rest of it. That's what I'm saying.
I don't know if he even believes that or if that's a weird translation or if he didn't say what he actually wanted to say. The man's work on Origin proves the exact opposite. One read of Origin shows you he is entirely invested in the idea of Amuro being the ideal newtype that Zeon Zum Deikun envisioned. He may give consideration to the politics of that world and how newtypes will affect that, but Origin's version of the sword fight between Char and Amuro clearly shows that Char believed himself to be the very thing that Amuro actually was while at the same time becoming the very thing that Zeon felt was an artifact of the past-a man that war mongers to reshape the world. In trying to destroy the Zabis, he became just like them. That is central to Gundam, and especially Origin, since it's more concerned with Char's past than the original story ever was. That duel at the end in the war museum is the climax of the entire series. It's where all threads come together and where everything that has been building culminates. That's about newtypes, not politics. Newtypes render politics obsolete. So if YAS was trying to tell a story concerned about politics and not human evolution, then he failed spectacularly.
Sure. But if that first movie trilogy, largely made from composites of the TV show, doesn't connect due to YAS' steady hand guiding Tomino's brain addled inconsistencies as creator, we don;'t get any of the things that followed.
Now, you could argue that Tomino directed the movies absent YAS' influence or input. I don't know that he was or wasn't involved. But YAS guided the TV show and that directly impacts both the movies and Tomino's subsequent visions.
It absolutely existed. Tomino has been documented, on camera, as saying that he respected YAS greatly and felt humbled next to him. Everyone else was terrified of Tomino during that production. You think YAS wasn't influencing him and course correcting him the whole way until he ended up in the hospital and couldn't be there to finish? I don't know what to tell you.
I need a better translation of the novels than Schodt's interpretation. I'm grateful it exists but it was a very dry and truncated read to me. It didn't connect with me.
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He had his preferences, but he was still limited to adapting Tomino's story. It's not like he could remove Newtypes from the story.
Anyway, here's an interview in Animage related to animating The Origin, where he discusses it briefly among everything else (including his bitterness toward Animage lol):
https://wavemotioncannon.com/2017/0...n-gundam-the-origin-animage-june-2015vol-444/
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I've read that interview. It's very interesting but I've always considered it odd that he said those things, given that newtypes are the essence of his own retelling. I just think he couches it very well in a masterfully realized vision of the story and that, inevitably, the theme of 'newtype' comes out so strongly. I look at the work itself and it's everywhere, even in the absences of newtypes that always seem to lead to disaster and suffering that would have otherwise been averted.
I don't know if it was intentional, but 0083's notable lack of newtypes, long touted as one of that OVA's 'strengths', could very well be interpreted as a major reason why things went the way they did-it takes more than a Gundam to stop a colony drop. The pilot is the difference. A newtype affecting the outcome could have prevented the formation of the Titans as well. Then again, since I only really 'care' about the original series, even if some of the stuff that followed was pretty great, I don't really concern myself with any of the sequels beyond being enjoyable stories that I would be okay with not existing.
I don't know if it was intentional, but 0083's notable lack of newtypes, long touted as one of that OVA's 'strengths', could very well be interpreted as a major reason why things went the way they did-it takes more than a Gundam to stop a colony drop. The pilot is the difference. A newtype affecting the outcome could have prevented the formation of the Titans as well. Then again, since I only really 'care' about the original series, even if some of the stuff that followed was pretty great, I don't really concern myself with any of the sequels beyond being enjoyable stories that I would be okay with not existing.
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Soldier of Sorrow.
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Because there's no way to extract it. You've got Char's dad who is basically Marx (and Degwin Zabi who is Lenin, despite all the nazi-esque iconography) and his theory of Newtypes, which becomes central to the story Tomino was telling in Gundam. And there's no way to get around it. Yas, with all the massaging and elaborating of the material, was still adapting the original series. Yas may have wished the story had gone in another direction after the series mid-point way back when, but he can't change that now.
But one thing I took away from that interview and Yas' feelings about sequels to Gundam, is that's why we got that shitty, incongruent second art style in the dumb Zeta movies (which were a trainwreck anyway, but whatever).
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Whether he likes newtypes or not or whether he wanted to tell that particular story or not, in adapting the story he found its true meaning when it was all said and done. That is evident by the multilayered climax of Origin. He expressed the idea of the newtype wonderfully. It wasn't just that it was baked into the recipe. He made it the best it's ever been. That is storytelling with actual meaning and given the end result it's clear he saw the importance of it beyond 'well, it's just a thing I had to do'.
Tomino's continued inconsistencies as a narrative creator show that he knows how to imagine a story but maybe not really how to tell one. At least, not as well as YAS. And so I maintain that without YAS, the original Gundam fails to even qualify for a movie trilogy presentation. Perhaps ironically, YAS is the true 'newtype' of Gundam. A good king doesn't want the crown.
I vacillate on the Zeta movie trilogy. I went and saw all three of them in the theater during a Chicago Film Festival. Tomino was there and he took a few questions from the audience. I could tell he was getting upset because he wanted to talk about the craft of filmmaking and fans were asking dumb questions like 'who is the strongest newtype' and 'does this mean ZZ doesn't exist anymore?'
Tomino's continued inconsistencies as a narrative creator show that he knows how to imagine a story but maybe not really how to tell one. At least, not as well as YAS. And so I maintain that without YAS, the original Gundam fails to even qualify for a movie trilogy presentation. Perhaps ironically, YAS is the true 'newtype' of Gundam. A good king doesn't want the crown.
I vacillate on the Zeta movie trilogy. I went and saw all three of them in the theater during a Chicago Film Festival. Tomino was there and he took a few questions from the audience. I could tell he was getting upset because he wanted to talk about the craft of filmmaking and fans were asking dumb questions like 'who is the strongest newtype' and 'does this mean ZZ doesn't exist anymore?'
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Again, except for the novels. But otherwise, yeah.
I don't know. I think it's many multitudes harder to imagine a new story out of nothing but thin air and then try to tell it under extreme budget and time constraints, than it is to retell that story with zero budget restraints, no studio interference, no worrying about market forces, and alllllllll the time in the world, after you've had a couple decades completely at your leisure to think about and work out what you'd add and what you'd tweak. Tomino was under the gun from day one and got canceled early, while Yas got the freedom to stretch from 3 years to 10. I mean, no wonder The Origin is so much better than the animated series. I just don't know if that by itself makes him a better storyteller.
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Except for that I think YAS's other noteworthy works, such as Arion and Venus Wars are better executed stories that are relatable, understandable and coherent. It's not just Gundam I'm talking about. One of the two knows how to construct a narrative. The other one is Yoshiyuki Tomino.
And I still maintain that YAS influenced the original production, given everything we know about it, and that is why it is the most structured of Tomino's Gundam that has ever existed. Tomino is a scatterbrained creator and that shows in all of his works, even his best Gundam. Which is still a pale shadow next to the original series.
And Origin > novels. At least, the Schodt adaptations. Give me a better translation that conveys what you claim and I'll reconsider. Until then, however...
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All of you two’s back and forth made me buy the mobile suit gundam awakening, escalation, confrontation novel. I cant understand most of what you guys are back and forth about but i hope this book is good. Gonna probably start it friday night.
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Just promise me one thing ponyboy, and don't lose yourself in the goobness like those two oldgoobs
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They are awesome. I don’t mind the Studio Proteus treatment of the source material. I agree w/ STK; it’s my favorite telling of a Gundam story.
Close second for me, is War in the Pocket.