Whatcha been playin? (06/05/12)

[Average Joe]

that guy just gets so angry over every little thing

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Is it an insult to say you're not very good at a game? How is that insulting?



LOL So now the sound's terrible as well?

Why didn't I have a problem hearing Sila's advice?

Why are so many people getting past the Kayran with little difficulty?

You are trying to hate on this game way too hard in order to back up your argument. And it doesn't stand up at all.

So you don't think saying "You suck at this game" is an insult? I admit it's not exactly a grievous wound to my ego or anything, but what am I to think? You're essentially saying that my opinion is invalid because I don't clear some kind of arbitrary skill bar that seems to exist only in your mind. So I feel inclined to defend myself on two points, then: First, my skill is hardly legendary but it's beyond reproach. Second, my opinions of this game are based on my observations of it and nothing else. You don't have the market cornered on logic, my friend.

As for the sound, I'm not making this up. There were a ton of problems with it. And before you impugn that notion, let me say ahead of time that I have a rather expensive audio set up, and it is properly calibrated. This game had poor quality sound.

Finally, and I'm a bit surprised you're still hung up on this, but I never said the Kayran was difficult. In fact I said the exact opposite... and several times at that. I said it was needlessly frustrating.

I stand by that. I found that it killed me too quickly to really get a handle on what I was supposed to do. I suppose I could have turned the subtitles on so I could actually hear what Sile was saying, but if I want to read the dialogue of a game, I'll do that and skip the voice acting. It's redundant.

Here's what I really find insulting, though (of course keep in mind I'm not offended or anything, you know how this works) is the fact that I think your opinion is perfectly valid. My premise was and remains this game is interesting, but flawed. Presumably you were able to overcome its flaws to enjoy the game more thoroughly than me. I just couldn't look past them (particularly the carrot-and-stick based plot, which wound up being extremely bloated in the end). You, then, come to the conclusion that my criticisms are 'baseless'. I don't disrespect your opinion. I don't see why I should be denied the same courtesy.

At the end of the day I've cited precise examples for every one of my criticisms. I haven't made them up. But for some reason you seem content to clap your hands over your ears and simply deny everything I've said.

Few games are above reproach. Hell, few things are, whatever they are. I don't know why you think this game is above such criticisms. If you want to make the case that it rises above its flaws that'd be one thing, but that's not what you're doing.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

i remember Ninny saying these same things about Bayonetta

I remember that. I said, in effect, that I didn't think it was a bad game or anything. I just didn't like it. I didn't like the story and presentation, and for some reason it just wasn't fun for me to play. I guess I didn't explain myself very well though, since everyone seems to think I hated every second of it or something.

P.S. I am nothing if not a cauldron of rage.

 

[Taiso]

So you don't think saying "You suck at this game" is an insult? I admit it's not exactly a grievous wound to my ego or anything, but what am I to think?

That I'm observing you're not good at The Witcher 2 and nothing more than that. If you take personal offense from that, then you're being far more sensitive than the situation merits.

You're essentially saying that my opinion is invalid because I don't clear some kind of arbitrary skill bar that seems to exist only in your mind.

Or in the reality that you are allowing your poor play at The Witcher 2 to define it as an 'uneven mess.' It's not, you're clearly frustrated by it and you're putting it on a game that, widespread, got accolades last year for being a more than competent product. That is hardly 'in my mind.'

In fact, it's more accurate to say that it's 'in your mind' that the game's bad.

So I feel inclined to defend myself on two points, then: First, my skill is hardly legendary but it's beyond reproach. Second, my opinions of this game are based on my observations of it and nothing else.

And if I call your judgment suspect, based on your lack of skill at the game? What then?

In the past, you've derided me for wearing 'rose colored glasses' when that was never the case. However, you stuck to your viewpoint and you still have that viewpoint today.

This is your version of 'rose colored glasses.' I firmly believe you stink at this game and you're putting it on the game. This is based on your views of it, comparing it with the overwhelming praise for the game and drawing my own conclusions based on the 'logic.'

Had you come on in a calm and scientific manner and talked about the game, I might have a different view on your opinion. The fact that you chose to come on NG.com and rail about it means my opinion on your view of this game is forever tainted.

You don't have the market cornered on logic, my friend.

Wow.

As for the sound, I'm not making this up. There were a ton of problems with it. And before you impugn that notion, let me say ahead of time that I have a rather expensive audio set up, and it is properly calibrated. This game had poor quality sound.

I use the speakers on my TV and I heard her advice without issues.

The sound is fine.

You were frustrated and weren't paying attention and now the game has bad sound.

Can you see why I can't respect your opinion of this game?

Finally, and I'm a bit surprised you're still hung up on this, but I never said the Kayran was difficult. In fact I said the exact opposite... and several times at that. I said it was needlessly frustrating.

It was only the first of a number of instances where I felt you were not being objective. It's just the easiest one to refer back to.

I stand by that. I found that it killed me too quickly to really get a handle on what I was supposed to do. I suppose I could have turned the subtitles on so I could actually hear what Sile was saying, but if I want to read the dialogue of a game, I'll do that and skip the voice acting. It's redundant.

It didn't kill me too quickly. I rolled out of the way when it slammed its tentacles until I figured it out by paying attention to the game and listening to the audio queues.

Here's what I really find insulting, though (of course keep in mind I'm not offended or anything, you know how this works) is the fact that I think your opinion is perfectly valid. My premise was and remains this game is interesting, but flawed. Presumably you were able to overcome its flaws to enjoy the game more thoroughly than me. I just couldn't look past them (particularly the carrot-and-stick based plot, which wound up being extremely bloated in the end). You, then, come to the conclusion that my criticisms are 'baseless'. I don't disrespect your opinion. I don't see why I should be denied the same courtesy.

The difference is that I don't feel your opinion is objective and my own experiences with the game not only differ from yours, they are the exact opposite.

Can you see why, after you came on in an angry huff to complain about the game, why I would read your comments, say 'this is not at all the game I experienced' and doubt your objectivity?

And if you're getting insulted, take a deep breath and relax. You know I don't think you're a dipshit. This is a matter of a strong difference in view and nothing more.

At the end of the day I've cited precise examples for every one of my criticisms. I haven't made them up. But for some reason you seem content to clap your hands over your ears and simply deny everything I've said.

I disagree with them but choose not to cite why I believe you're wrong on most counts because then we have more posts like this, where every last thing gets dissected.

There comes a time when you have to wipe away the detritus and get to the core of the matter.

That is, I think you're wrong about The Witcher 2 and feel your frustrations have been projected as the game's problems and now you're fighting too hard to prove your point.

Few games are above reproach. Hell, few things are, whatever they are. I don't know why you think this game is above such criticisms. If you want to make the case that it rises above its flaws that'd be one thing, but that's not what you're doing.

I recall agreeing with you that the combat is not that great.

I also believe that I criticized that the final infodump in the game is an incredible disservice to the narrative. I said this to you in PM before you ever started playing the game.

How is that me putting the game 'beyond reproach'?

 

[cannonball]

It was a while ago so I don't remember exactly and I can't be bothered to look it up, but this all sounds exactly like what happened in the Dark Souls thread when Ninny came in extremely frustrated while everyone else was having a completely different experience. My apologies Ninny if it wasn't you, but it just made me laugh reading all of this and having a deja'vu moment.

 

[Wachenroder]

Damn where did all this come form? lol

PS2: Still grinding out those Megaman X games. Just finished X3 the last of the SNES X games. Still probably my favorite one or that trilogy. Currently playing Megaman Battle and Chase and then moving on to Megaman X4 on the MMX Collection and then Rockman X4 for the Saturn.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

It was a while ago so I don't remember exactly and I can't be bothered to look it up, but this all sounds exactly like what happened in the Dark Souls thread when Ninny came in extremely frustrated while everyone else was having a completely different experience. My apologies Ninny if it wasn't you, but it just made me laugh reading all of this and having a deja'vu moment.

No, that was me. I ate some crow on that one. I was very frustrated by the early goings in Dark Souls... And, in my own defense, it's a frustrating game. But I hung in there and in the end I really and truly came to love it. Might've been my favourite game that year, actually.

For Witcher 2, I played it and beat it. I explored its nooks and crannies along the way. No one can say I didn't give it a fair shake. And let me say one more time, with gusto: I don't think it's a bad game. I just don't think it warrants the rather glowing portrayal that it's had from a few people, that's all.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

That I'm observing you're not good at The Witcher 2 and nothing more than that. If you take personal offense from that, then you're being far more sensitive than the situation merits.



Or in the reality that you are allowing your poor play at The Witcher 2 to define it as an 'uneven mess.' It's not, you're clearly frustrated by it and you're putting it on a game that, widespread, got accolades last year for being a more than competent product. That is hardly 'in my mind.'

In fact, it's more accurate to say that it's 'in your mind' that the game's bad.



And if I call your judgment suspect, based on your lack of skill at the game? What then?

Gonna lump a few of these together to save some time.

Okay then. Let's say, for sake of argument, that I really do suck at this game. Why is my opinion any less valid for it? Does one have to be a game master to have a worthy opinion? I don't think so.

But it doesn't matter because I don't suck at the game. Hell, I'm tempted to beat it on Dark just to prove it to you. Are you really going to deny there were some dumb design choices in some of the encounters? If so, I find your opinion suspect.

I said it once and I said it again: Geralt's combat style, regardless of your spec, is based on being able to move and dodge. If the game forces you into a corner for a fight -- and it does it more than a few times -- it's going to make for some frustrating game play. Maybe you're more patient than me. But it doesn't change the fact that there are some fights that are made harder than they need to be, or should be, or whatever, and it's because of the environment. I find that cheap.

As some final thoughts on this matter, I'm not all bent out of shape that you think I'm shitty at this game. Honestly I don't feel like I have anything to prove. I just don't see why you're so fixated on it. Don't you see the potential for a slippery slope here? Next time I disagree with you on something I can just say, "Well, Taiso, you just suck at this game. You don't understand it. Therefore you are wrong and I am right." Sounds like bullshit to me.

In the past, you've derided me for wearing 'rose colored glasses' when that was never the case. However, you stuck to your viewpoint and you still have that viewpoint today.

This is your version of 'rose colored glasses.' I firmly believe you stink at this game and you're putting it on the game. This is based on your views of it, comparing it with the overwhelming praise for the game and drawing my own conclusions based on the 'logic.'

Had you come on in a calm and scientific manner and talked about the game, I might have a different view on your opinion. The fact that you chose to come on NG.com and rail about it means my opinion on your view of this game is forever tainted.

Well, I'll be the first to say that my temper has gotten away from me on more than a few occasions. But is now one of those occasions? Have I flown off the handle and yelled at screamed at any and everyone? I don't believe I have... I guess if you want to make the case that my emotions have clouded my judgment before and are again now, there's not much I can do to prove otherwise, but that seems like taking this sort of thing way too seriously if you ask me. Well... Maybe that's not entirely true. A good argument ought to be serious. But whatever, you get the point (hopefully).

Wow.

That was a good natured jibe. Or at least I thought it was... Take it how you will. I don't mind telling you that you seem to be acting a bit condescending about it, though.

I use the speakers on my TV and I heard her advice without issues.

The sound is fine.

You were frustrated and weren't paying attention and now the game has bad sound.

Can you see why I can't respect your opinion of this game?

You really want to get into this? You really want to compare TV speakers to a proper surround setup? I'll just say this: With my setup, any problems in the audio are going to be exacerbated. I like to think I have a good ear to boot. Trust me. The sound is shitty.

And no. I don't see why you don't respect my opinion. But hey, that's why I'm taking the time to write this.

It was only the first of a number of instances where I felt you were not being objective. It's just the easiest one to refer back to.

That doesn't change the fact that you've been wrong about my assertions on the matter. I kept saying, "This is needlessly frustrating." You then said, "It's not that hard. No really, it's not that hard!" I'm paraphrasing of course, but you said that more than once. I kept repeating what I was trying to say, yet it seemed to fall on deaf ears. Frustrating and hard aren't the same thing. Sure, they often go hand in hand, but one is a fault whereas the other is a potential merit. If you don't seem to differentiate between the two, why should I take your counter-arguments seriously? Seems to me you have your ass hanging out on this one.

It didn't kill me too quickly. I rolled out of the way when it slammed its tentacles until I figured it out by paying attention to the game and listening to the audio queues.

Seems to me the exact play by play isn't that important, but this is what my experience was like:

I see the Kayran. I don't really know what to do, so I dodge the tentacle slams and get close to hack at it (you know, the same tactic that works on literally every other enemy in the game). He does this crazy attack and takes off about half my life, even though I'm wearing the best possible armour you can get at that point and I have a potion that protects me from its poison. I fall back a bit to observe it. I hear Sila say something, but the subtitles are turned off because they're stupid and redundant and her voice gets lost in the sound and music of the game. I think to myself, "I have to play with the sound levels again? I just spent twenty minutes on it." Please note that this is not a common problem. Occasionally I'll turn the voices up or the sound effects down but I honestly can't remember the last time I had to sit in the audio menu of a game and fool around with it just so I can hear what the characters are saying. It's almost like (gasp!) the sound is shitty and badly executed. Anyway I didn't hear Sila and I didn't see any openings. I then fudged a dodge and got killed -- two hits in. On the next shot I wondered if that 'kill you when you get close' thing was an automatic response or something it just does from time to time, so I got right up in there. So I got hit again confirming that it does indeed attack if you get close and you can't dodge that shot. So I tried to see some other weaknesses. I saw that there were big red bits on its tentacles, but I flubbed another dodge before I had a chance to do anything and died. By then I admit I was getting annoyed. For attempt three, I tried to attack those red bits. I was unsuccessful, got hit two or three times, and died. Up until then I'd assumed the trap spell wouldn't work on the beast, since games like this seldom let you use such tactics on bosses. Because I was getting increasingly annoyed, I looked up how to do it, saw you did use those trap sigils, then beat it easily. I suppose I could have turned the subtitles on (and later, I did), but Jesus, come on. How often is something someone shouts in the middle of battle something of critical importance? Not that often.

So that's my account. Call it bullshit if you will but I don't think I was being unreasonable.

The difference is that I don't feel your opinion is objective and my own experiences with the game not only differ from yours, they are the exact opposite.

Can you see why, after you came on in an angry huff to complain about the game, why I would read your comments, say 'this is not at all the game I experienced' and doubt your objectivity?

Sure. Here's the thing, though: no one's opinion is entirely objective. You can do your best but it's impossible to be truly unbiased. That's just being human. Sorry, but you're not going to be able to convince me otherwise on this one. I don't think I was being unreasonably unobjective.

And if you're getting insulted, take a deep breath and relax. You know I don't think you're a dipshit. This is a matter of a strong difference in view and nothing more.

I'm not. Don't worry. We can skate right past this one.

I disagree with them but choose not to cite why I believe you're wrong on most counts because then we have more posts like this, where every last thing gets dissected.

Whoops.

There comes a time when you have to wipe away the detritus and get to the core of the matter.

That is, I think you're wrong about The Witcher 2 and feel your frustrations have been projected as the game's problems and now you're fighting too hard to prove your point.

Yes, of course. That's why we're at loggerheads here. I think it's an okay game with some good ideas and a few really bad decisions along the way that really spoil things. I also think it lacked refinement. We've gone over the combat engine and its flaws, so there's no need to repeat all that here. I think it comes down to this: You enjoyed the subject matter, the presentation, the story, the trappings, etc. For you you had a fun game and you probably didn't pay much attention (or even notice) a lot of the things I'm talking about. And again, that's totally fine. I think that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to.

For me, I got hung up on the games flaws. Most of all I thought the plot was overblown and overly full of itself. We've been avoiding talking about this -- if you're like me you want to avoid spoilers. But I don't think we can continue with that, so here we go:

Spoiler:

Here's the thing that drove me crazy: of the central plot, the only stuff that really matters is what Letho tells you in the end. That's not just an info dump, it makes most of what you've done pretty much totally inconsequential. All that shit in Flotsam and Henselt's camp really didn't have much to do with the overarching story. Even act 3 only barely gets into it, and that's at the very end too. To me this makes for a pretty weak plot, even if it's well told.

There were other things I thought were poorly done as well though. How about the characters? Other than Geralt himself, no one is very interesting. They all lack any real development. Maybe Iorveth was different, but I went with Roche (I didn't want to betray him in the middle of that little skirmish), and he's about as exciting and interesting as a bowl of plain oatmeal. The only thing that surprised me in the least was the fact that he was involved in the plot against Henselt, but that was hardly revelatory or even all that interesting in the end. I might have liked Triss a lot more if she actually got to show any aspects of her character other than "I love Geralt." She's absent for 3/4 of the game anyway.

This is not Game of Thrones stuff. Most of what happens has very little to do with the real plot. Most of it seems like a set up for a sequel, and that made me feel cheated as a player, like nothing I did mattered. So for those reasons I think the plot is mediocre. I mean, come on. It relies on such tired tropes as amnesia. Give me a break.

Is everything I've said total bullshit? I don't think so. So how am I projecting, exactly? How hard am I fighting to prove all this? I admit I like to argue with you (I find it really entertaining for some reason), but I'm not exactly poring over the game with a fine tooth comb here. I've cited a shitton of flaws and cited examples for each. I didn't pick out any obscurities or mention anything out of context. I said, "This part is weak. Here's an example."

I recall agreeing with you that the combat is not that great.

I also believe that I criticized that the final infodump in the game is an incredible disservice to the narrative. I said this to you in PM before you ever started playing the game.

How is that me putting the game 'beyond reproach'?

All right, you've got me here. But you seem to dismiss most of my criticisms. It's like you can't even believe someone would say this is an average game. I think other games are more worthy of peoples' precious time. That's all. You seem intent on proving me wrong on some kind of absolute level, though, and to me this is just not a good use of one's time. But hey, here we are anyway. At least it's fun -- the arguing, that is (it is for me, anyway).

 

[cannonball]

No, that was me. I ate some crow on that one. I was very frustrated by the early goings in Dark Souls... And, in my own defense, it's a frustrating game. But I hung in there and in the end I really and truly came to love it. Might've been my favourite game that year, actually.

Ah yeah that's right. You did come around in the end. I'm glad you stuck it out and got to really appreciate what an awesome game it was.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

Ah yeah that's right. You did come around in the end. I'm glad you stuck it out and got to really appreciate what an awesome game it was.

People seem to think otherwise, but I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong.

 

[HeartlessNinny]

I take your silence to mean you concede your defeat, Taiso.