Formal Impeachment Inquiry

Xavier

Master Brewer, Genzai Sake Co.
20 Year Member
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/08/nadler-this-is-formal-impeachment-proceedings-1454360

“This is formal impeachment proceedings,” Nadler said in a CNN interview. “We are investigating all the evidence, gathering the evidence. And we will [at the] conclusion of this — hopefully by the end of the year — vote to vote articles of impeachment to the House floor. Or we won’t. That’s a decision that we’ll have to make. But that’s exactly the process we’re in right now.”

I don't know, makes me feel better that people are doing their jobs. Should have been opened four months ago when the Mueller investigation was released.
 

Xavier

Master Brewer, Genzai Sake Co.
20 Year Member
Well they do want to use it to get Don McGhan to testify.

Yesterday all majors banks turned over any financials they have relating to the Trump family and organization and any Russians that may have ties to them. Depending on whats in them they may paint a bigger picture and tax returns might become irrelevant. Might have tax returns in them.

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article...-forked-over-a-pile-of-documents-to-democrats
 

SML

NEANDERTHAL FUCKER,
20 Year Member
I don't think there will be a vote either way at the end of the year. A vote either way carries risks that I don't think enough Democrats want to take.

Well timed unsealing of testimony, on the other hand...
 

Xavier

Master Brewer, Genzai Sake Co.
20 Year Member
I feel the Democrats have done a poor job making the case for impeachment.

Most recently by only having two articles listed relating to the Ukraine scandal.

They should have listed every law the President broke, all his abuses of power and immoral behavior he's partaken of since running for office.

As far as I know there are at least seven congressional investigations into him going on right now. They could have easily brought 7-12 charges against him. Obstruction & abuse of power Mulluer/Whislteblower/claiming executive privilage, numerous campaign finance violations, emoluments clause, tax evasion, bribery extortion and so on.

By ignoring these other issues he's getting a free pass and it makes it appear he did nothing wrong. It almost seems like a political calculation that if they go much further down these rabbit holes dozens of other people may be held criminally liable. Either that or else they are just lazy. Maybe they just want to quickly move before the election and be able to say he was technically impeached because they know nothing will pass in the Senate.

All of it seems like bad strategy to me.

Instead the last couple months have again needlessly focused on the Ukraine when it mostly didn't need to. The case is pretty much open and close already.

Giuliani makes the late night talking heads rounds and admits to all on CNN/Fox etc.

The aid was released to the Ukraine when the whistleblower complaint was becaming public

The President admits to it in news interviews and asks other countries to intervene in the 2020 election on his behalf

The basic call transcript is released collaborating the evidence

Pelosi formally announces impeachment inquiry even though it was already going on

Mulveney admits to wrongdoing during new conference

Closed door hearing, witnesses collaborate with whistle blower. Transcipts released.

----Rehold almost all the hearings again publicly preempting national television

Then only list two articles for impeachment
 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
I agree Xavier, Democrats are losing an opportunity on strategy from my perspective too and I know we don't really agree on the politics of some of this stuff.

First problem, self imposed deadlines. In theory this is to avoid weakening Senate Democrats running for the nomination if this runs into 2020, which makes sense. In practice, it gives Trump a position to stall until rank and file gets fidgety about their deadline and then Democrats have a decision to make. If this is about taking a principled stand and holding the executive branch to account through their Constitutionally available powers, they may have to blow their cover that this was not politically motivated because they need to wrap it up so they can get back to campaigning. It will look bad. The deadlines create a pace of proceedings and hearings and testimony that people can't keep up with. Since we know ahead of time that actual removal is probably pretty unlikely, then your goal at the very least is to swing voters away from Trump through a damning impeachment process. The rush kind of makes it look like a hit job rather than justice. You aren't doing this to persuade Republicans in Congress, you're doing it to persuade your middle of the road voters. If they screw it up, they'll galvanize support rather than erode it.

Part of the problem for the democrats too, I think, is the seemingly endless amount of scandal/complaints about Trump's supposedly impeachable behavior from day 1. While it could be 100% true on all counts, it seems to be a boy who cried wolf scenario and gives the Republicans ammo to say "they've been looking for something for forever". When the Mueller report comes and goes with no follow up and then this Ukraine thing gets literally dumped into their lap as such an obvious boneheaded move then people wonder if the Mueller report really was done for purely political purposes, that it went away quietly because they found nothing, and that they are now just continuing on to the next thing. Because if the opposite is true and they didn't pursue obvious crimes detailed in the report, that would make them derelict of duty and waiting for an obvious political opportunity to take advantage.

I dunno, I'm trying to follow, have watched some testimony but the details of the charges are almost so banal that I can't keep my attention. I want the good ol' days where we argued over POTUS getting sucked off in the Oval Office.
 

norton9478

So Many Posts
No Time
For Games.
20 Year Member
There is nothing banal about trading taxpayer funds for sole the purpose of a political favor.
 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
There is nothing banal about trading taxpayer funds for sole the purpose of a political favor.

oh-wait-youtre-serious-let-me-laugh-even-harder-17927461.png
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
I agree Xavier, Democrats are losing an opportunity on strategy from my perspective too and I know we don't really agree on the politics of some of this stuff.

First problem, self imposed deadlines. In theory this is to avoid weakening Senate Democrats running for the nomination if this runs into 2020, which makes sense. In practice, it gives Trump a position to stall until rank and file gets fidgety about their deadline and then Democrats have a decision to make. If this is about taking a principled stand and holding the executive branch to account through their Constitutionally available powers, they may have to blow their cover that this was not politically motivated because they need to wrap it up so they can get back to campaigning. It will look bad. The deadlines create a pace of proceedings and hearings and testimony that people can't keep up with. Since we know ahead of time that actual removal is probably pretty unlikely, then your goal at the very least is to swing voters away from Trump through a damning impeachment process. The rush kind of makes it look like a hit job rather than justice. You aren't doing this to persuade Republicans in Congress, you're doing it to persuade your middle of the road voters. If they screw it up, they'll galvanize support rather than erode it.

Part of the problem for the democrats too, I think, is the seemingly endless amount of scandal/complaints about Trump's supposedly impeachable behavior from day 1. While it could be 100% true on all counts, it seems to be a boy who cried wolf scenario and gives the Republicans ammo to say "they've been looking for something for forever". When the Mueller report comes and goes with no follow up and then this Ukraine thing gets literally dumped into their lap as such an obvious boneheaded move then people wonder if the Mueller report really was done for purely political purposes, that it went away quietly because they found nothing, and that they are now just continuing on to the next thing. Because if the opposite is true and they didn't pursue obvious crimes detailed in the report, that would make them derelict of duty and waiting for an obvious political opportunity to take advantage.

I dunno, I'm trying to follow, have watched some testimony but the details of the charges are almost so banal that I can't keep my attention. I want the good ol' days where we argued over POTUS getting sucked off in the Oval Office.

Wait, you’re saying the Mueller evidence didn’t turn up anything?

Or did you mean to say, since Mueller was told he couldn’t make conclusions on the president, that his findings fell flat in a world where the democrats needed leadership?

Because the report did discuss how much of the evidence was tampered with or destroyed, iirc, especially anything to do with Trump’s sons.

But otherwise, back to the impeachment, I agree that there is a failure of narrative control here, and that democrats have not done themselves favors. One major problem is that the democrats include too many varying special interests, while the GOP has been mostly rank and file. What this means is that any action has to be signed off by the moderates like pelosi and the nutcases like AOC (big win moving AMZN out of her district, to Hudson Yards, which will see massive collateral growth (stores, restaurants, offices) and an increase in commercial real estate value. I’m sure her constituents will enjoy spending their hard earned money away from their own shitty district for lack of choices.)

The democrat party is really overdue for a schism, but they are afraid of losing votes.
 

norton9478

So Many Posts
No Time
For Games.
20 Year Member
Long Island City (Amazon's proposed HQ2 site) is not in NY's 14th district (D-Ocasio-Cortez)
 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
Wait, you’re saying the Mueller evidence didn’t turn up anything?

Or did you mean to say, since Mueller was told he couldn’t make conclusions on the president, that his findings fell flat in a world where the democrats needed leadership?

The latter is what I was attempting to say possibly poorly. My point was that if there was something there it became Congress's job to act on it and my understanding is that Mueller said as much. That the decision to charge was not within the scope of his authority. Produce the report, pass it on to Congress. They didn't act on it, so they basically gave the ok for whatever was in there with the caveat that they could continue to use it for political purposes, but if this was about making a principled stand they kinda missed that opportunity.

The lack of action in my opinion was directly responsible for the Republican mantra of 'no collusion'. If the Democrats didn't want to take any action, the Republicans could take control of the narrative without much risk.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
The latter is what I was attempting to say possibly poorly. My point was that if there was something there it became Congress's job to act on it and my understanding is that Mueller said as much. That the decision to charge was not within the scope of his authority. Produce the report, pass it on to Congress. They didn't act on it, so they basically gave the ok for whatever was in there with the caveat that they could continue to use it for political purposes, but if this was about making a principled stand they kinda missed that opportunity.

The lack of action in my opinion was directly responsible for the Republican mantra of 'no collusion'. If the Democrats didn't want to take any action, the Republicans could take control of the narrative without much risk.

The GOP can go ahead and play checkers all day, while the Dems think they're playing chess but have no idea how to play it.
 

oliverclaude

General Morden's Aide
The best impeachment chance out there is on November 3, 2020. Of course, chances are, it'll end up like on November 2, 2004. Pragmatism can be devastating.
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
The best impeachment chance out there is on November 3, 2020. Of course, chances are, it'll end up like on November 2, 2004. Pragmatism can be devastating.

Impeachment isn’t removal. Bill Clinton was impeached. Andrew Johnson was impeached. Neither was removed from office.

Voting Trump out is a definitive stop to his policies and weird nepo-oligarchism. But the problems exploited will remain, much like those of the Bush W era into Obama. No electable Democrat will fix the machine.
 

Rot

Calvin & Hobbes, ,
Impeachment isn’t removal. Bill Clinton was impeached. Andrew Johnson was impeached. Neither was removed from office.

Voting Trump out is a definitive stop to his policies and weird nepo-oligarchism. But the problems exploited will remain, much like those of the Bush W era into Obama. No electable Democrat will fix the machine.

SO ESSENTIALLY... what you're sayin' is...

The impeachment process is like a "de-mod Rot..."... thread...

It sounds great... and get's lots of exposure but in reality... Rot gets to stay?

WHOOP DE DOO!

xROTx
 

evil wasabi

The Jongmaster
20 Year Member
SO ESSENTIALLY... what you're sayin' is...

The impeachment process is like a "de-mod Rot..."... thread...

It sounds great... and get's lots of exposure but in reality... Rot gets to stay?

WHOOP DE DOO!

xROTx

Sure. Just a thread though. End of the day you’re still a mod, unless Shawn moves to remove you.
 

Rot

Calvin & Hobbes, ,
Sure. Just a thread though. End of the day you’re still a mod, unless Shawn moves to remove you.

In all honesty...

I view the impeachment process as a way to score points...

Even in the UK... the Clinton "dress stain" incident was news... but nothing really changed...

Good old Bill is still a Democratic Legend.. and is rolled out when the party needs some serious support...

xROTx

PS. Unsure if the Democratic candidates have the clout to oust Trump... from what I see they're all busy killing each other and not focusing on the problem in hand...
 

SpamYouToDeath

I asked for a, Custom Rank and, Learned My Lesson.
15 Year Member
Trump officially impeached.

Now to see if America still cares about the rule of law.

I'm not expecting the Senate GOP to convict him. I do think it's worthwhile to get them on-the-record as being okay with this conduct, though. They've spent the past three years running away from the TV cameras when someone presses them on the President's behavior. This way, they've got to sit down and affirmatively state "yes, our party is okay with it.".
 

oliverclaude

General Morden's Aide
Impeachment isn’t removal. Bill Clinton was impeached. Andrew Johnson was impeached. Neither was removed from office.

I stand corrected.

No electable Democrat will fix the machine.

I like the touch of this statement, but there aren't any non-electables that couldn't be fixed/vetted into being electable. As long as they stay non-electable, we can at least fool ourselves about the possibility of change, cause when you're drowning, the Ship of Fools is your only saving grace. Even if it's destiny is to ultimately meet its "Booth", "Oswald", "Ray", "Sirhan" or whatever you want to call it, it's nice to have illusions. That's what keeps us safe from the Dutch act. In politics anyway.
 

Marek

Banned
Pelosi is refusing to send articles to senate until there will be a guarantee of something resembling a fair trial.

I mean this is gangster as fuck. Considering Giuliani's antics, the Russian payments to Let Parnas, potentially Devin Nunes' conduct, etc.

Trump could get more articles of impeachment against him.

Wouldnt that be fun? Lets do impeachment once every 2 months until the election or he resigns/strokes out.

Also hello lads. Glad to see y'all
 

lithy

Most Prominent Member of Chat
20 Year Member
I do agree that refusing to send the articles over is the first (in my opinion at least) strong move that Democratic leadership has made so far during this process. If acquittal in the Senate is basically guaranteed and it won't take long at all then they don't have to worry about it taking away from campaign/fundraising time for any Senators running for the presidency and they can hold this over Trump for as long as possible as a president who has been impeached but not yet acquitted.
 
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