Petition to bring Neo-geo games to the gamecube
- Thread starter smokey
- Start date
What? It's a bad imitation of the Dreamcast controller with smaller buttons, strange d-pad and twice the size of its model! I think the best console controller is the Dreamcast one, Gamecube comes second but is shit for fighting games and I would say Atari Jaguar as third even if some hates it. Of course the AES joystick rules for real arcade lovers but it's not really a joypad. The worse remains the Playstation one followed by the X-Box because it's a failed rip-off and it's too heavy for a good handgrip. It's well adapted for prehistoric men only (with big hands) and Yeti's! very_ang
Q
qube
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Even though I think it is hopeless, I just want to add my name to the petition. I would like to see some GCN love from Playmore wink
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2001
- Posts
- 13,396
this has got to be the most worthless thread in the
whole world.
i love ports but
i ll be playing the real version when the shit comes out.
i ll get the home cart first then the mvs when it comes
down to a reasonable price.
and maybe i ll get the game later on as a port.
i have a kof 95,96,97,98, and 99 on the ps that i play once or twice for
a laugh and put them up, checked out the galleries and all or whatever.
the only kofs i ever enjoyed playing on other systems
have been on the saturn and DC.
the DC pad was adequate and the saturn pad was superb.
i think about playing any NEO game on the GC and
all i think about is stretching my thumbs all
to the dpad. i mean shit. it even made RE unenjoyable for me
since i get my kicks in the game using the digital pad.
the xbox pad is almost the same in that respect.
the dpad like on the gc pad is an after thought.
more like a relic of the past from the big daddies
caddy cornered off to the side in case they run out
of buttons.
the ps pad is alright for tomb raider.
it was made for that game.
but playing 2 d games on it is like grinding your
thumbs on a snes pad trying to pull off dms in ff2
for the first time in your life without knowing the motions.
go ahead and port it to the ps2.
xbox too.
port the game to the gba and then play that shit
on the gba player.
whats there to think about.
i ll be playing mine with real SNK joysticks
having a fuck of a time.
<small>[ June 04, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: rarehero ]</small>
whole world.
i love ports but
i ll be playing the real version when the shit comes out.
i ll get the home cart first then the mvs when it comes
down to a reasonable price.
and maybe i ll get the game later on as a port.
i have a kof 95,96,97,98, and 99 on the ps that i play once or twice for
a laugh and put them up, checked out the galleries and all or whatever.
the only kofs i ever enjoyed playing on other systems
have been on the saturn and DC.
the DC pad was adequate and the saturn pad was superb.
i think about playing any NEO game on the GC and
all i think about is stretching my thumbs all
to the dpad. i mean shit. it even made RE unenjoyable for me
since i get my kicks in the game using the digital pad.
the xbox pad is almost the same in that respect.
the dpad like on the gc pad is an after thought.
more like a relic of the past from the big daddies
caddy cornered off to the side in case they run out
of buttons.
the ps pad is alright for tomb raider.
it was made for that game.
but playing 2 d games on it is like grinding your
thumbs on a snes pad trying to pull off dms in ff2
for the first time in your life without knowing the motions.
go ahead and port it to the ps2.
xbox too.
port the game to the gba and then play that shit
on the gba player.
whats there to think about.
i ll be playing mine with real SNK joysticks
having a fuck of a time.
<small>[ June 04, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: rarehero ]</small>
Solid Snake
King's Dry Cleaner
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2001
- Posts
- 392
Is this shit still going on?!
Just for Fun, let me lay down some facts!
The following only applies to GC and Xbox.
1. GC does have a larger install base over Xbox worldwide!
2. Xbox permanently owns North America even though GC have had some months where they outsold Xbox, the lead is to large and its unlikely that they'll catch-up. Another interesting fact is once Nintendo territory, Canada has been over run by Xbox.
3.Its been a toss up in Europe since the beginning and even now its hard to tell but lately Xbox has had a lead.
4.Xbox owns Australia. No questions asked. Over there GC sales are so poor that its a good possibility that they will pull it off the shelf. At the rate of sales growth for Xbox over there it has the possibility of catching up with even PS2 in a couple of years!
5. Its almost vice-versa over in Japan compared to Australia but the thing is both are dwarfed by PS2.
6. Every game that has been released for both Xbox and GC in America, has sold better on the Xbox. In most cases they're gap is 50% to a 100%+ more. The only exception might be Soccer Slam but both sold so poorly that its unlikely that it matters.
7. Capcom GC sells overwhelmed Xbox last year only because they released only two games for the Xbox (Genma Onimusha and Steel Battalion).
8. Even thought RE did sell a million worldwide, it was much less than original anticipated and could single-handily be linked to the drop of Capcoms stock value.
9.As of now the best selling game for Sega between the two is JSRF/SEGA GT bundle that sold over a million but technically they cheated! angry The second most is SA2:B that sold by now close to 450,000+ copies.
BTW just my preferance but I love the Xbox s style controller over the other three.
Just for Fun, let me lay down some facts!
The following only applies to GC and Xbox.
1. GC does have a larger install base over Xbox worldwide!
2. Xbox permanently owns North America even though GC have had some months where they outsold Xbox, the lead is to large and its unlikely that they'll catch-up. Another interesting fact is once Nintendo territory, Canada has been over run by Xbox.
3.Its been a toss up in Europe since the beginning and even now its hard to tell but lately Xbox has had a lead.
4.Xbox owns Australia. No questions asked. Over there GC sales are so poor that its a good possibility that they will pull it off the shelf. At the rate of sales growth for Xbox over there it has the possibility of catching up with even PS2 in a couple of years!
5. Its almost vice-versa over in Japan compared to Australia but the thing is both are dwarfed by PS2.
6. Every game that has been released for both Xbox and GC in America, has sold better on the Xbox. In most cases they're gap is 50% to a 100%+ more. The only exception might be Soccer Slam but both sold so poorly that its unlikely that it matters.
7. Capcom GC sells overwhelmed Xbox last year only because they released only two games for the Xbox (Genma Onimusha and Steel Battalion).
8. Even thought RE did sell a million worldwide, it was much less than original anticipated and could single-handily be linked to the drop of Capcoms stock value.
9.As of now the best selling game for Sega between the two is JSRF/SEGA GT bundle that sold over a million but technically they cheated! angry The second most is SA2:B that sold by now close to 450,000+ copies.
BTW just my preferance but I love the Xbox s style controller over the other three.
You are right on some things, I disagree with you on some things, and you are wrong on others.
2. Not necessarily so. The majority of Xbox's current lead over the GC in NA can be attributed to sales earned in December 2002. With good advertising and a killer app that appeals to the mainstream the shoe can easily be put on the other foot. The Saturn was ahead of the PSX in Japan for almost 2 years and look how things turned around.
4. The GC sales in Australia are bad but the market is a little spot on the wall in the grand scheme of things. Needless to say thats no excuse for Nintendo of Australia. Many of Nintendo's killer apps were delayed until after Christmas (a huge mistake) just like in Europe. I dont even think Zelda or Metroid have hit yet. Again, nothing is set in stone.
5. Not really the same considering that Japan is the 2nd largest market for games in the world.
6. Wrong. I don't have the figures in front of me right now but off the top of my head I can tell you that Spiderman as well as other notable games sold better on the cube than on the xbox.
7. Thats a poor excuse you know why? Sega released fewer games for the Gamecube but the total sales of software were almost double than that seen on the Xbox. Not to mention that Capcom released the same number of titles for the Gamecube and Xbox up to January of this year (Gamecube took the lead in # of titles due to RE 2 & 3 ports).
8. Wrong again. The only person within Capcom to speak publically about RE sales being a disappointment was Mikami (the series creator). And he wasn't upset that the game didn't sell. He was upset b/c Kingdom Hearts sold more. The fact remains that the sales of REmake and RE0 exceeded Capcom's own internal expectations. Ohh and Capcom's drop in stock price was due to a realestate issue. Not the sales of one game.
<small>[ June 05, 2003, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: JC10001 ]</small>
Lou Gojira
Enemy Chaser
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2000
- Posts
- 1,168
Okay Hendrix, now for you!
*pops knuckles* Let's get this flying circus underway!
Before I even begin to state my case, I'd like to point out that this little debate, as good and entertaining as it can get, cannot get resolved. This is along the lines of the age old debate "Who is better? SNK or Capcom?" Debates based on tastes of the individuals involved ultimately go nowhere, but for what it's worth they can be pretty fun.
For example, you could swear up and down that red-heads are the most beautiful women on Earth, and I can say that blondes are. Either way we're both guys who like girls, we're just splitting some hairs.
I noticed that a few times in your examples about how much better you prefer the graphics of other 2D fighters, you used the word "clean". I think this is pivotal, because where you consider something "clean", I will usually consider it "simple". I too have been interested in computer graphics for years, and have been drawing since I was old enough to hold a pencil. I'd like to think I have a discerning eye for detail because of this.
You may find animation more of a drawing point in graphics, and there is no denying that Capcom fighters and the Guilty Gear series are overly abundant in that department. However, where my gripe with these games comes is in detail, or lack of detail of the actual art. Remember a little while back, where somebody posted Street Fighter graphics side by side with the SNK vs Capcom renditions of the same characters? The differences were like night and day. SNK, or Playmore breathed life into these characters. It may be a challenge describing this without the visuals accompanying it, but try and remember. Didn't you notice the detail in muscle tone, wrinkles in the clothes, and even defining hair textures? Playmore made these characters finally look "modern".
The reason I used the paper-doll reference earlier is because that's the way these characters look to me. Take Potempkin from the Guilty Gear series for example; he's certainly an interesting character in design, much like the rest of the Guilty Gear cast. But look at his rendering. His skin tone uses very few colors. Where are the highlights? Where are the shadows that should be cast? And on top of that, the artists used a single line to define his muscles. The result is what is supposed to be a very strong and brute strength type character comes off looking flat. In reality, he'd be a lot more rounded, bulky you could say. His weight is not conveyed in his art. Now, look at Cheng in KOF. Here we have a huge fighter that not only looks big, but in his rendering he becomes more believable because of the quality of art. To add to the believability factor, his belly can jiggle at certain times, the way his clothes contour to his fat frame are rendered as such (loosely fitting where he's not fat, and exceeding tight in the areas he is) also.
Another example would be M. Bison (or Vega for the purists) from the Street fighter games. Here we have a character that is, by all intentions, supposed look intimidating and strong. But does he? Again, look at his rendering. His red outfit is so simply colored you get no indication of his build or his frame. Sure, muscle tone won't show through clothes like it would if he wasn't wearing a shirt for example, but again, if more time was taken to render his details, some indication would've been put forth. Now, in contrast, look at Geese Howard. Geese can be wearing the top portion of a karate outfit, only showing his forearms, and you get a sense of his physical strength. His shoulders are broad, the wrinkles in the clothes indicate a triangular shape to his top half and a lean "work-out" looking build. As a final result, Geese, though he's fallen off sky-scrapers plenty of times before, he'll be intimidating to fight when you have to face him. Geese gives more of a sense of being a boss than Vega, even before you start throwing punches.
Now, as for the animation, that is an area where Capcom fanboys and GG fans think these games excel. But do they really? Compare those animations with any of the animations from KOF or Samurai Shodown. Sure, the non-Neo characters may look overly animated, but how is this helping their appearance when their rendering is shoddy or second-rate to begin with? Maybe Vega's arms jiggle a little more than Geese's, but where is this helping Vega look any badder? Watch some boxing or PKA tournaments on ESPN, those guys don't jiggle around or sway like crazy while standing there. They take a defensive stance, study their opponent, and then dive in to fight. By comparison, Neo games have garnered a more realistic approach to the rendering of fighters simply because they don't over-do. Is this to say they can't over-do because of supposed hardware limitations? Hardly. Look at games like AOF 3 or MOTW for fine examples of the frame rate capability. It appears to me that if anything Playmore, or rather SNK, kept the word moderation in mind rather than going for a look that is less realistic. They went for substance, i.e. believability, over flash or gimmick.
Another important aspect that I think a lot of people tend to overlook is the consistency of the graphics. Compare the game Samurai Shodown to Guilty Gear. Notice the colors chosen in the backgrounds with the colors in the characters. By comparison, you'll see that SNK characters look like they're in a bamboo forrest, or they're in a cave. The Guilty Gear characters, because of their (as you like to say) "clean" rendering look like they're fighting on the nicely detailed background rather than in it. The atmosphere takes a drop because of this, and resulting in the believability factor as well.
I could go on, but I think you have enough to go on for now. I'll patiently wait for the rebuttal.
<small>[ June 05, 2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Lou Gojira ]</small>
*pops knuckles* Let's get this flying circus underway!
Before I even begin to state my case, I'd like to point out that this little debate, as good and entertaining as it can get, cannot get resolved. This is along the lines of the age old debate "Who is better? SNK or Capcom?" Debates based on tastes of the individuals involved ultimately go nowhere, but for what it's worth they can be pretty fun.
For example, you could swear up and down that red-heads are the most beautiful women on Earth, and I can say that blondes are. Either way we're both guys who like girls, we're just splitting some hairs.
I noticed that a few times in your examples about how much better you prefer the graphics of other 2D fighters, you used the word "clean". I think this is pivotal, because where you consider something "clean", I will usually consider it "simple". I too have been interested in computer graphics for years, and have been drawing since I was old enough to hold a pencil. I'd like to think I have a discerning eye for detail because of this.
You may find animation more of a drawing point in graphics, and there is no denying that Capcom fighters and the Guilty Gear series are overly abundant in that department. However, where my gripe with these games comes is in detail, or lack of detail of the actual art. Remember a little while back, where somebody posted Street Fighter graphics side by side with the SNK vs Capcom renditions of the same characters? The differences were like night and day. SNK, or Playmore breathed life into these characters. It may be a challenge describing this without the visuals accompanying it, but try and remember. Didn't you notice the detail in muscle tone, wrinkles in the clothes, and even defining hair textures? Playmore made these characters finally look "modern".
The reason I used the paper-doll reference earlier is because that's the way these characters look to me. Take Potempkin from the Guilty Gear series for example; he's certainly an interesting character in design, much like the rest of the Guilty Gear cast. But look at his rendering. His skin tone uses very few colors. Where are the highlights? Where are the shadows that should be cast? And on top of that, the artists used a single line to define his muscles. The result is what is supposed to be a very strong and brute strength type character comes off looking flat. In reality, he'd be a lot more rounded, bulky you could say. His weight is not conveyed in his art. Now, look at Cheng in KOF. Here we have a huge fighter that not only looks big, but in his rendering he becomes more believable because of the quality of art. To add to the believability factor, his belly can jiggle at certain times, the way his clothes contour to his fat frame are rendered as such (loosely fitting where he's not fat, and exceeding tight in the areas he is) also.
Another example would be M. Bison (or Vega for the purists) from the Street fighter games. Here we have a character that is, by all intentions, supposed look intimidating and strong. But does he? Again, look at his rendering. His red outfit is so simply colored you get no indication of his build or his frame. Sure, muscle tone won't show through clothes like it would if he wasn't wearing a shirt for example, but again, if more time was taken to render his details, some indication would've been put forth. Now, in contrast, look at Geese Howard. Geese can be wearing the top portion of a karate outfit, only showing his forearms, and you get a sense of his physical strength. His shoulders are broad, the wrinkles in the clothes indicate a triangular shape to his top half and a lean "work-out" looking build. As a final result, Geese, though he's fallen off sky-scrapers plenty of times before, he'll be intimidating to fight when you have to face him. Geese gives more of a sense of being a boss than Vega, even before you start throwing punches.
Now, as for the animation, that is an area where Capcom fanboys and GG fans think these games excel. But do they really? Compare those animations with any of the animations from KOF or Samurai Shodown. Sure, the non-Neo characters may look overly animated, but how is this helping their appearance when their rendering is shoddy or second-rate to begin with? Maybe Vega's arms jiggle a little more than Geese's, but where is this helping Vega look any badder? Watch some boxing or PKA tournaments on ESPN, those guys don't jiggle around or sway like crazy while standing there. They take a defensive stance, study their opponent, and then dive in to fight. By comparison, Neo games have garnered a more realistic approach to the rendering of fighters simply because they don't over-do. Is this to say they can't over-do because of supposed hardware limitations? Hardly. Look at games like AOF 3 or MOTW for fine examples of the frame rate capability. It appears to me that if anything Playmore, or rather SNK, kept the word moderation in mind rather than going for a look that is less realistic. They went for substance, i.e. believability, over flash or gimmick.
Another important aspect that I think a lot of people tend to overlook is the consistency of the graphics. Compare the game Samurai Shodown to Guilty Gear. Notice the colors chosen in the backgrounds with the colors in the characters. By comparison, you'll see that SNK characters look like they're in a bamboo forrest, or they're in a cave. The Guilty Gear characters, because of their (as you like to say) "clean" rendering look like they're fighting on the nicely detailed background rather than in it. The atmosphere takes a drop because of this, and resulting in the believability factor as well.
I could go on, but I think you have enough to go on for now. I'll patiently wait for the rebuttal.
<small>[ June 05, 2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Lou Gojira ]</small>
leGionellz
Pancho Villa is my Direct Ancestor,
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2002
- Posts
- 1,754
I don't think graphics should be judged by their resolution or effects... The only thing that really makes difference is art and style.
And I personally think that SNK will never be surpassed in their art and styles.
Check SS3.. Have you ever seen a game better designed in that way ?
And I personally think that SNK will never be surpassed in their art and styles.
Check SS3.. Have you ever seen a game better designed in that way ?
Alright then I got a lot of work to do today so thats why I couldn't get a good reply going till lunch. You got some nice stuff in there that I really can't agree with.
See when I say "clean" sprites, I mean clean as in clearly defined, like something you'd see as an almost Anime type quality to it. Neo sprites for the most part (especially KOF) have a very pixelated look to them. This is because of them being in low resolution and because of memory limitations.
But we can argue this all we want, you say the SNK characters have more details in them? I say differently, first we'll use your example of Chang and Potemkin:
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Chang1.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Pot1.gif" alt=" - " />
Now we can't compare the animations quality because different sprite rippers have different tecniques in quality, so lets try and concentrate on still images.
Above is Chang's stance vs. Potemkin's stance. Neo sprites don't really have the resolution to define characters by lines, so differences are made with small gradients to form those lines. GGX sprites have a higher resolution and also use gradients for shading, however characters are more defined by the use of single lines.
Granted we're comparing two styles here the Neo is using what I'd call the "16bit" style of things where GGX goes for more of an Anime type feel. Watch a GGX match and it almost looks like Anime quality sprites flying around on there.
Personally I think the GGX sprites are about 329847124 times better than the KOF sprites. Everyone is always talking about running the Neo through RGB or S-Video, what happens when you do that? You get a clearer image and as such you see the drastic pixelizations of the characters. Personally that almost makes me go "Bleh" out loud with how it looks. GGX by comparison may look a littel pixelated here, but in game its run through filters before display that smooth things out. I look at it through Component Video on my TV and it looks gorgeous, a very stark contrast to the KOF sprites.
As for looking intimidating I'd say that GGX wins overall again check out these taunt stances:
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Chang2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Pot2.gif" alt=" - " />
Chang may look kinda silly, but look at that face, pretty intimidating and cocky. Good image for him. Still you can barely see the smile, you have to look for it and guess. Check out Potemkin, you can see the fingernail outlines on the damn guy, definitely a higher quality Anime type look to it for sure. Not exactly full on Cell quality here, but give them some time and we may be at that point.
Personally I think it looks awesome.
Next lets compare my favorite "badass" characters from KOF and GGX, Iori and Sol.
Here we have Iori (KOF), Iori (CvS1), and Sol
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Iori1.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/IoriC1.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Sol1.gif" alt=" - " />
Now you can see the KOF sprite looks quite a bit gritty, not exactly defined, very very pixelated. Compared to the CvS1 sprite I'd say Iori is cleaned up quite a bit, and you can see a little more of him detail wise. Its him in the more Anime styled new look that Capcom sorta moved towards with the cleaner sprites.
Sol on the other hand is just awesome, tons of detail, defined lines, great shading, and you can just plain see more of him! You can see nuances that you only get a minor impression of with Iori.
I will contine in a second post to get more images up.
See when I say "clean" sprites, I mean clean as in clearly defined, like something you'd see as an almost Anime type quality to it. Neo sprites for the most part (especially KOF) have a very pixelated look to them. This is because of them being in low resolution and because of memory limitations.
But we can argue this all we want, you say the SNK characters have more details in them? I say differently, first we'll use your example of Chang and Potemkin:
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Chang1.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Pot1.gif" alt=" - " />
Now we can't compare the animations quality because different sprite rippers have different tecniques in quality, so lets try and concentrate on still images.
Above is Chang's stance vs. Potemkin's stance. Neo sprites don't really have the resolution to define characters by lines, so differences are made with small gradients to form those lines. GGX sprites have a higher resolution and also use gradients for shading, however characters are more defined by the use of single lines.
Granted we're comparing two styles here the Neo is using what I'd call the "16bit" style of things where GGX goes for more of an Anime type feel. Watch a GGX match and it almost looks like Anime quality sprites flying around on there.
Personally I think the GGX sprites are about 329847124 times better than the KOF sprites. Everyone is always talking about running the Neo through RGB or S-Video, what happens when you do that? You get a clearer image and as such you see the drastic pixelizations of the characters. Personally that almost makes me go "Bleh" out loud with how it looks. GGX by comparison may look a littel pixelated here, but in game its run through filters before display that smooth things out. I look at it through Component Video on my TV and it looks gorgeous, a very stark contrast to the KOF sprites.
As for looking intimidating I'd say that GGX wins overall again check out these taunt stances:
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Chang2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Pot2.gif" alt=" - " />
Chang may look kinda silly, but look at that face, pretty intimidating and cocky. Good image for him. Still you can barely see the smile, you have to look for it and guess. Check out Potemkin, you can see the fingernail outlines on the damn guy, definitely a higher quality Anime type look to it for sure. Not exactly full on Cell quality here, but give them some time and we may be at that point.
Personally I think it looks awesome.
Next lets compare my favorite "badass" characters from KOF and GGX, Iori and Sol.
Here we have Iori (KOF), Iori (CvS1), and Sol
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Iori1.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/IoriC1.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Sol1.gif" alt=" - " />
Now you can see the KOF sprite looks quite a bit gritty, not exactly defined, very very pixelated. Compared to the CvS1 sprite I'd say Iori is cleaned up quite a bit, and you can see a little more of him detail wise. Its him in the more Anime styled new look that Capcom sorta moved towards with the cleaner sprites.
Sol on the other hand is just awesome, tons of detail, defined lines, great shading, and you can just plain see more of him! You can see nuances that you only get a minor impression of with Iori.
I will contine in a second post to get more images up.
Lets check again with the Orochi versions of Iori from KOF97, CvS1, and a really pissed off Sol:
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Iori2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/IoriC2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Sol2.gif" alt=" - " />
You can see here the example of the KOF sprites having to use shading to define a lot of lines, it can be overused, which it is in KOF. The CvS1 sprite is cleaner, smoother, detailed, and has more sensible shading done to the character. Sol is once again the clear winner. You can see more of him, he's got more details, more shading that makes sense, it's not over done, overall not as gritty or pixelated, much cleaner and as a whole a lot closer to what I would consider the perfection of 2D art: Anime or Animated Movies (Disney, etc).
As far as Animation goes, I don't think that SNK didn't animate the characters as well because they wanted it to look like a real fighter, rather its a fact of either lazyness or technical limitations. If they stood perfectly still it would look like shit, thats why they get standing animations. Even so this doesn't account for movement, punches or kicks. The more animation the more impressive it looks, the more it looks like a real Anime/Cartoon, the better ITMO (in the majorities opinion
).
Neo games are limited to the 16bit style they're overly pixelated, not as well defined and well a bit ugly when you look at them through an RGB monitor or the like. Not so with the new styled 2D stuff.
I wish I could get 3rd Strike sprite rips to illustrate what I mean by this, as it is still low res, but has much larger sprites that AREN'T pixelated like the AOF3 sprites. They're clean, shading is defined and not in blocky gradients, it also flows at a much faster rate making it look nicer.
My point is this is one of the very few places you can go to find people who will tell you that the Neo has better graphics, simply because they don't like modern graphics and miss the 16bit era. As for the majority opinion I dare you to just go out and ask someone what looks better. As an old co-worker who doesn't play games to look at the sprites as to which is better. Go to an arcade and ask players what looks nicer. I don't care if they're in the "mainstream" or not, thats the majority opinion, thats what should be catered to in order to make money.
I mean its just amazing the reactions I get when people who don't know about the Neo come over and after hearing me talk about it all the time see what the games actually look like.
I quote: "This came out in 2002???!??!" when I showed em KOF2k2.
"It looks like shit" when reffering to ROTD and KOF2k2.
"The game is fun, but if they improved the graphics then it might actually sell if it was on PS2" - Quote from a 2D fighter fan (Capcom devotee) after playing some KOF2k2.
They have the gameplay, now all they need is the graphics and sound to reel in players, which is exactly why they should step things up on new hardware ASAP!
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Iori2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/IoriC2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Sol2.gif" alt=" - " />
You can see here the example of the KOF sprites having to use shading to define a lot of lines, it can be overused, which it is in KOF. The CvS1 sprite is cleaner, smoother, detailed, and has more sensible shading done to the character. Sol is once again the clear winner. You can see more of him, he's got more details, more shading that makes sense, it's not over done, overall not as gritty or pixelated, much cleaner and as a whole a lot closer to what I would consider the perfection of 2D art: Anime or Animated Movies (Disney, etc).
As far as Animation goes, I don't think that SNK didn't animate the characters as well because they wanted it to look like a real fighter, rather its a fact of either lazyness or technical limitations. If they stood perfectly still it would look like shit, thats why they get standing animations. Even so this doesn't account for movement, punches or kicks. The more animation the more impressive it looks, the more it looks like a real Anime/Cartoon, the better ITMO (in the majorities opinion
). Neo games are limited to the 16bit style they're overly pixelated, not as well defined and well a bit ugly when you look at them through an RGB monitor or the like. Not so with the new styled 2D stuff.
I wish I could get 3rd Strike sprite rips to illustrate what I mean by this, as it is still low res, but has much larger sprites that AREN'T pixelated like the AOF3 sprites. They're clean, shading is defined and not in blocky gradients, it also flows at a much faster rate making it look nicer.
My point is this is one of the very few places you can go to find people who will tell you that the Neo has better graphics, simply because they don't like modern graphics and miss the 16bit era. As for the majority opinion I dare you to just go out and ask someone what looks better. As an old co-worker who doesn't play games to look at the sprites as to which is better. Go to an arcade and ask players what looks nicer. I don't care if they're in the "mainstream" or not, thats the majority opinion, thats what should be catered to in order to make money.
I mean its just amazing the reactions I get when people who don't know about the Neo come over and after hearing me talk about it all the time see what the games actually look like.
I quote: "This came out in 2002???!??!" when I showed em KOF2k2.
"It looks like shit" when reffering to ROTD and KOF2k2.
"The game is fun, but if they improved the graphics then it might actually sell if it was on PS2" - Quote from a 2D fighter fan (Capcom devotee) after playing some KOF2k2.
They have the gameplay, now all they need is the graphics and sound to reel in players, which is exactly why they should step things up on new hardware ASAP!
Bull.
You're right about the less characters the more animation they can have per char, but I wouldn't go anywhere near as far to say that MOTW chars animate better than the GGX ones do. No sprite rips done have any of the quality for either game to show exactly how much animation is for either but I can honestly say that while MOTW has exceptional animations its not at the same level that GGX's characters are animated.
the_move
,
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2001
- Posts
- 2,699
Then take a closer look, dude!
Especially on "fireball" animations like Rock doing his reppuken.
IN SF3 Ryu has 14 frames of animation for doin his Hadouken. I bet even Rock single Reppuken has 6-10 more frames of animation.
And there are much more examples.
(added)
And true, Garou outclasses all other games in overall animation (quantity of animation frames).
<small>[ June 05, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: the_move ]</small>
Lou Gojira
Enemy Chaser
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2000
- Posts
- 1,168
Hey Hendrix, thanks for posting those pics. You've only helped me prove my point. buttrock What sucks is that I gotta get outta here and take care of some business, but I'm gonna try like hell to get back on later tonight and add to this little debate.
Before I go though, I have to ask: Have you ever taken a course on Life Drawing or sketching?
Later.
Before I go though, I have to ask: Have you ever taken a course on Life Drawing or sketching?
Later.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2001
- Posts
- 13,396
are you saying that the ggx characters and the cap v SNKJHendrix:
Lets check again with the Orochi versions of Iori from KOF97, CvS1, and a really pissed off Sol:
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Iori2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/IoriC2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Sol2.gif" alt=" - " />
You can see here the example of the KOF sprites having to use shading to define a lot of lines, it can be overused, which it is in KOF. The CvS1 sprite is cleaner, smoother, detailed, and has more sensible shading done to the character. Sol is once again the clear winner. You can see more of him, he's got more details, more shading that makes sense, it's not over done, overall not as gritty or pixelated, much cleaner and as a whole a lot closer to what I would consider the perfection of 2D art: Anime or Animated Movies (Disney, etc).
As far as Animation goes, I don't think that SNK didn't animate the characters as well because they wanted it to look like a real fighter, rather its a fact of either lazyness or technical limitations. If they stood perfectly still it would look like shit, thats why they get standing animations. Even so this doesn't account for movement, punches or kicks. The more animation the more impressive it looks, the more it looks like a real Anime/Cartoon, the better ITMO (in the majorities opinion
Neo games are limited to the 16bit style they're overly pixelated, not as well defined and well a bit ugly when you look at them through an RGB monitor or the like. Not so with the new styled 2D stuff.
I wish I could get 3rd Strike sprite rips to illustrate what I mean by this, as it is still low res, but has much larger sprites that AREN'T pixelated like the AOF3 sprites. They're clean, shading is defined and not in blocky gradients, it also flows at a much faster rate making it look nicer.
My point is this is one of the very few places you can go to find people who will tell you that the Neo has better graphics, simply because they don't like modern graphics and miss the 16bit era. As for the majority opinion I dare you to just go out and ask someone what looks better. As an old co-worker who doesn't play games to look at the sprites as to which is better. Go to an arcade and ask players what looks nicer. I don't care if they're in the "mainstream" or not, thats the majority opinion, thats what should be catered to in order to make money.
I mean its just amazing the reactions I get when people who don't know about the Neo come over and after hearing me talk about it all the time see what the games actually look like.
I quote: "This came out in 2002???!??!" when I showed em KOF2k2.
"It looks like shit" when reffering to ROTD and KOF2k2.
"The game is fun, but if they improved the graphics then it might actually sell if it was on PS2" - Quote from a 2D fighter fan (Capcom devotee) after playing some KOF2k2.
They have the gameplay, now all they need is the graphics and sound to reel in players, which is exactly why they should step things up on new hardware ASAP!
sprites are better because they look more like cartoons?
sounds like thats what your saying.
and you know what you said about how 2k2 looks.
this is a jab btw at the game.
if you were to show people 99 with its overall look,
backgrounds, and sprites they probably wouldnt
be saying the same.
but hey what would i know. im not a mainstream gamer.
Excalibear
n00b
- Joined
- May 23, 2003
- Posts
- 11
for sure dude
Ok lemme put this to rest: MOTW by no stretch of any realistic imagination has more frames of animation than SF3 does, period. There is no way on gods green earth this is true, all you have to do is LOOK at those games side by side and the differences are astounding.
Same for GGX.
As for 2k2, rare it wouldn't matter if I showed them any KOF you chose, I've had people tell me the exact same thing about KOF98, same thing for 99 which we played right after 98.
And if you want to call Anime cartoons, then go ahead but you're only using that word to downgrade how things sound. Look at an extremely well drawn anime (stuff like Trigun or the animated intro to GGX2 comes immediately to mind) as a slick looking modern Anime. Its this level of detail/style that GGX strives for and its obvious.
As for the pics proving your point, grab anyone who's not diehard into the 16bit era or the Neo (a vast, vast majority) and have them tell you which game looks better. Hell I dare you to go to a dedicated KOF board like ON or KOFOnline, etc and ask them if Playmore should put out a KOF that has GGX like graphics or to stick with the same old Neo. What kind of results would you get there?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the next reply.
Same for GGX.
As for 2k2, rare it wouldn't matter if I showed them any KOF you chose, I've had people tell me the exact same thing about KOF98, same thing for 99 which we played right after 98.
And if you want to call Anime cartoons, then go ahead but you're only using that word to downgrade how things sound. Look at an extremely well drawn anime (stuff like Trigun or the animated intro to GGX2 comes immediately to mind) as a slick looking modern Anime. Its this level of detail/style that GGX strives for and its obvious.
As for the pics proving your point, grab anyone who's not diehard into the 16bit era or the Neo (a vast, vast majority) and have them tell you which game looks better. Hell I dare you to go to a dedicated KOF board like ON or KOFOnline, etc and ask them if Playmore should put out a KOF that has GGX like graphics or to stick with the same old Neo. What kind of results would you get there?
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the next reply.
leGionellz
Pancho Villa is my Direct Ancestor,
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2002
- Posts
- 1,754
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Chang1.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Pot1.gif" alt=" - " />
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Chang2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Pot2.gif" alt=" - " />
So basically, what you're saying is that the GG character surpasses one of the greatest SNK characters because there's more resolution and detail ? oh_no
You pretend to know a lot of art and graphics, but I don't see you supplying any more reasons for your statement then the 2 above. That means the 2 criteria are enough for you to like a game, or at least it's characters. (?)
Isn't this exactly what is killing the quality of the games these days ? It's all about GFX.. they are clearer, crispier en more detailed indeed, but they don't have a soul anymore.
The GG character in your post is NOT ryu, nor is he guile, nor E honda....
Don't you get it ?
The character on the right is just a character, there's nothing more he tells me and there's nothing more to love about him. He indeed looks like an anime character and imo quite a dull one.
When you compare the 2 characters, can you really say you like the capcom high detailed one better then 'our' snk one ? I can't imagine that and for me this is one of the reasons, besides gameplay, why I love the SNK games so much.
IMO you're insulting the neo here.
And again, IMO you don't really seem to have a clue what neo games are actually about (in these times). No offence, I just like this discussion too wink
Yes, the neo was once advertised as the most powerful game system on earth, but was that the only thing that appealed to you ? Think about it... wasn't there much much more ? All I can tell is that I myself have a huge list with reasons for my love of the neo AND it's characters.
<img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Chang2.gif" alt=" - " /> <img src="http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/GFX/Pictures/Pot2.gif" alt=" - " />
So basically, what you're saying is that the GG character surpasses one of the greatest SNK characters because there's more resolution and detail ? oh_no
You pretend to know a lot of art and graphics, but I don't see you supplying any more reasons for your statement then the 2 above. That means the 2 criteria are enough for you to like a game, or at least it's characters. (?)
Isn't this exactly what is killing the quality of the games these days ? It's all about GFX.. they are clearer, crispier en more detailed indeed, but they don't have a soul anymore.
The GG character in your post is NOT ryu, nor is he guile, nor E honda....
Don't you get it ?
The character on the right is just a character, there's nothing more he tells me and there's nothing more to love about him. He indeed looks like an anime character and imo quite a dull one.
When you compare the 2 characters, can you really say you like the capcom high detailed one better then 'our' snk one ? I can't imagine that and for me this is one of the reasons, besides gameplay, why I love the SNK games so much.
IMO you're insulting the neo here.
And again, IMO you don't really seem to have a clue what neo games are actually about (in these times). No offence, I just like this discussion too wink
Yes, the neo was once advertised as the most powerful game system on earth, but was that the only thing that appealed to you ? Think about it... wasn't there much much more ? All I can tell is that I myself have a huge list with reasons for my love of the neo AND it's characters.
3RD Strike is awesome by all means of measure. I play it every weekend when my firends come over and we don't get sucked into hours of KOF, MOTW, MvC2, and CvS2.
Don't know why we don't play SF3 more, we're just not done with the above games that we started on years ago. Someday soon we'll get stuck on SF3 like we are on MOTW right now, its just in those games its almost like playing a chess match since we're always so even when it comes to the level we play at against eachother.
So yeah, despite my love for the graphics, I play KOF more than GGX and SF3. What does that mean?
I want KOF gameplay and SF3/GGX graphics! loco
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2001
- Posts
- 35,035
!JHendrix:
3RD Strike is awesome by all means of measure. I play it every weekend when my firends come over and we don't get sucked into hours of KOF, MOTW, MvC2, and CvS2.
Don't know why we don't play SF3 more, we're just not done with the above games that we started on years ago. Someday soon we'll get stuck on SF3 like we are on MOTW right now, its just in those games its almost like playing a chess match since we're always so even when it comes to the level we play at against eachother.
So yeah, despite my love for the graphics, I play KOF more than GGX and SF3. What does that mean?
I want KOF gameplay and SF3/GGX graphics! loco
Half the characters I cannot use because I am not elite enough... basically.
Insulting the Neo? I don't mean to, but I'm going to call a spade a spade when I see one.
Actually if you must know, I wasn't into the Neo at all back when it was the shit. I mean before I had a Genesis back in like 2nd and 3rd grade I'd drool over the Neo they had on display at the Lionel Kiddy's and at the screenshots of the home games when I saw the reviews in my GamePro.
Then I got into fighting games and I played SF2 and FF2/Special. I remember I was at B-Day party with my friends and we rented like every fighting game we could get our hands on for SNES: Shaq-Fu, a FF game (I don't remember if it was 2 or Special, I just remember Terry), and a bunch of other ones that were pretty crappy. I got beat off of the SF2 matches (we had multiple TV's setup in my friends basement it was godlike at the age of 12) and I went over to the other SNES and we took out NBA Jam and we put in the FF game. We played for about 5 minutes before saying how badly it sucked and then popped in NBA Jam again till we could have our turns in the SF2 matches again.
I tried KOF back in the arcades back in the day when they were still around and all I could think was how crappy they were compared to the Capcom fighters.
Fast forward plenty of years and I started to get into the Neo again by playing old fighters in MAME that I never played before (Samurai Shodown, KOF99, MOTW, LB2) and I started to get into it untill I bought a AES system and KOF2k. Ended up selling that and built my MVS setup I have today.
So yeah I don't have any of the rose-eyed glasses that you all do about these games, I didn't grow up with them: I simply see the good Neo games that exist and I play them.
Granted there is a lot of magic that I missed out on back in the day, but I'm happy playing these games now as I have so many fighters to keep me occupied I can go years off them.
That said, I can appreciate the characters and the stories that there are for characters from AOF, FF, and SS. I think they're awesome characters honestly, but you're making one hell of a mistake with your statements on the GGX characters though.
There is SO MUCH STORY in GGX2 that its not even funny. All those characters are so unique in their designs and stories that you DO grow attached to them. They're not Ryu or Terry, but they're of the same quality. Sure you may not like them now because they're "mainstream" and the way you look at and learn characters now is quite a bit different than how you grew up with characters like Ryu, Ken, Terry, Mai, Hoahmaru, etc.
But even still, just because the game has super flashy graphics designed to grab mainstream attention, that doesn't mean that there isn't a good game there or a lot of well designed characters with a LOT of story behind them (they have 3 endings a piece for gods sake with tons of extra material on them in game, you just have to unlock it!).
So no, I don't think its whats wrong with games today, I don't think its all about the graphics since every single year I find new games that come out that warrant my money and my attention.
There is only one fundamental difference now: bad games can now have great graphics. Back in the day, really only good games had very good graphics, this isn't true anymore. Also back in the day the market was smaller, so bad games didn't sell as well. Now bad games with good graphics can sell moderately well, but that doesn't mean that extremely good games don't sell well anymore either!
That said, the industry has grown quite a bit and there are a lot more shit games released than before, conversely the percentage of good games has gone up as well. But don't ever dilude yourself into thinking that back in the day there were more good games put out than bad ones, since this is simply not true. I've always owned a very small number of games that were released compared to the overall number of titles put out for a platform since I found only a small percentage of them worth owning.
Good games are still being made, don't trick yourself into thinking otherwise because we now have more idiots playing games than before.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2001
- Posts
- 13,396
well.
dont expect a long reply.
i hate bonuskun v lwk arguments that reach epic proportions.
and yea.
i think 99 is the higher peak of the NEOs graphics.
i wouldnt say that the NEOs time isnt due.
a game with the specs for a system like the naomi
+ old SNK would kick anyones ass.
but thats not the reality of it.
the NEOs here for awhile.
and i love the fuck out of it.
and you know what.
i m one of the three people that would take the
'old outdated' graphics over this new stuff.
i m surprised by my brother too.
he gets excited over games like river city ransom
and other old kind of games.
in fact i got this chinese bootleg famicom system
cheap the other day with a 50 game cart.
really 8 or so games just doubles with different names)
and he played that for awhile.
i ve said it before and its that i thought capcom
did a good job on the cvS sprites.
they just need to implement them into an actual
good playing game.
ggx is like a boring combo based sword game.
which puts it one notch below lb which is an interesting
combo based sword game.. which puts it beneath
ss which is a kick ass bloody as fuck based sword game.
i ve always liked SNK styled sprites.
they are different from capcoms work and others.
and i d prefer an SNK styled game over any other.
so there.
happy now.
made me admit i m an SNK fanboy.
angry
<small>[ June 05, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: rarehero ]</small>
dont expect a long reply.
i hate bonuskun v lwk arguments that reach epic proportions.
and yea.
i think 99 is the higher peak of the NEOs graphics.
i wouldnt say that the NEOs time isnt due.
a game with the specs for a system like the naomi
+ old SNK would kick anyones ass.
but thats not the reality of it.
the NEOs here for awhile.
and i love the fuck out of it.
and you know what.
i m one of the three people that would take the
'old outdated' graphics over this new stuff.
i m surprised by my brother too.
he gets excited over games like river city ransom
and other old kind of games.
in fact i got this chinese bootleg famicom system
cheap the other day with a 50 game cart.
really 8 or so games just doubles with different names)
and he played that for awhile.
i ve said it before and its that i thought capcom
did a good job on the cvS sprites.
they just need to implement them into an actual
good playing game.
ggx is like a boring combo based sword game.
which puts it one notch below lb which is an interesting
combo based sword game.. which puts it beneath
ss which is a kick ass bloody as fuck based sword game.
i ve always liked SNK styled sprites.
they are different from capcoms work and others.
and i d prefer an SNK styled game over any other.
so there.
happy now.
made me admit i m an SNK fanboy.
angry
<small>[ June 05, 2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: rarehero ]</small>