Tonight’s debate

[Taiso]

Before we can even begin to determine what the principles are, we have to all jointly acknowledge that they exist and that these lives have meaning beyond their temporal stamina.

I have accepted that they exist. I'm in the process of trying to find out what I think they are. After that, the next step is to compare them with the conclusions that other serious thinkers have come to on this particular subject.

I don't take seriously any statement that 'it's all meaningless' or 'it's pointless.' If others believe that, all well and good. It doesn't mean I don't respect you in the here and now. We can still coexist and even be friends. But maybe let's just talk about how gay Kyo is instead of anything of significance or consequence as it concerns our moral compass.

RE: the screams 'provoking a response'

Speculation based on living in this country all my life and watching these things develop over the course of my existence.

That was all predictive engineering. Bread and circuses for the masses. Once it slipped that Joe was leaving the race, the media served their masters and began spinning it as a response to a grassroots movement. Joe was pushed out. The only vestige of who he was that was left in these last few days was of that feisty combatant. All he had left was defiance. I can assure you he did not go willingly. He's ever been a tool of his party, though.

It's this simple: he was going to lose, everyone knew it and they are already on to the next great social engineering and predictive engineering arcs of the American people.

They know Kamala is going to lose as well. This is about the White House in 2028 but the house and senate in 2024.

Even with 81 million in one day. Watch Musk bump up his donation to Trump any day now.

 

[SML]

Watch Musk bump up his donation to Trump any day now.

Back up? He already backed down from the $45 million/month he said he'd be giving.

 

[Taiso]

Back up? He already backed down from the $45 million/month he said he'd be giving.

That's news to me. When did he retract the offer?

 

[SML]

In an interview with Jordan Peterson Monday.

 

[StevenK]

Before we can even begin to determine what the principles are, we have to all jointly acknowledge that they exist and that these lives have meaning beyond their temporal stamina.

I have accepted that they exist. I'm in the process of trying to find out what I think they are. After that, the next step is to compare them with the conclusions that other serious thinkers have come to on this particular subject.

I don't take seriously any statement that 'it's all meaningless' or 'it's pointless.' If others believe that, all well and good. It doesn't mean I don't respect you in the here and now. We can still coexist and even be friends. But maybe let's just talk about how gay Kyo is instead of anything of significance or consequence as it concerns our moral compass.

The problem is that a huge number of 'serious thinkers' have come to the conclusion that it's all meaningless, and/or pointless.

For the record, I don't know their thoughts on Kyo's sexuality.

 

[Dr Shroom]

VOTE SHROOM 2024
AMERICA UNITED UNDER ONE LOVING FIST

 

[Fygee]

Also what type of person is energized by the thought of voting for Harris but wasn’t for Biden?

People who didn't want to vote for an old man with a failing mind. Plus her being a woman and a minority is more appealing to segments of liberals, and there's also her being a former prosecutor going up against a convicted felon.

By the way, MAGA "back the blue" conservatives championing a corrupt felon with ACAB liberals championing a prosecutor is about as America as America can get.

 

[Taiso]

The problem is that a huge number of 'serious thinkers' have come to the conclusion that it's all meaningless, and/or pointless.

For the record, I don't know their thoughts on Kyo's sexuality.

Im looking for serious thinkers who believe there is meaning.

I dont consider nihilists serious thinkers at all.

 

[Taiso]

The problem is that a huge number of 'serious thinkers' have come to the conclusion that it's all meaningless, and/or pointless.

For the record, I don't know their thoughts on Kyo's sexuality.

Im looking for serious thinkers who believe there is meaning.

I dont consider nihilists serious thinkers on the subect.

At all.

 

[StevenK]

Welcome to an echo chamber, it's already started

 

[Lagduf]

People who didn't want to vote for an old man with a failing mind. Plus her being a woman and a minority is more appealing to segments of liberals, and there's also her being a former prosecutor going up against a convicted felon.

By the way, MAGA "back the blue" conservatives championing a corrupt felon with ACAB liberals championing a prosecutor is about as America as America can get.

RE: Your second paragraph, haha yeah we’re a wild, fickle lot in America.

 

[Neo Alec]

The problem is that a huge number of 'serious thinkers' have come to the conclusion that it's all meaningless, and/or pointless.

For the record, I don't know their thoughts on Kyo's sexuality.

The dominant outlook in the atheist humanist community is that the lack of a creator or supreme being controlling the universe, along with the ephemeral nature of life, is exactly what gives life meaning. Imagine existing for an eternity -- It's a scary thought. I don't think humans can comprehend what forever would mean. All things have an end. Because this existence is all we've got, it's all the more reason to make the most of it and treat others with empathy and dignity.

 

[StevenK]

The dominant outlook in the atheist humanist community is that the lack of a creator or supreme being controlling the universe, along with the ephemeral nature of life, is exactly what gives life meaning. Imagine existing for an eternity -- It's a scary thought. I don't think humans can comprehend what forever would mean. All things have an end. Because this existence is all we've got, it's all the more reason to make the most of it and treat others with empathy and dignity.

I think you've misunderstood me. The point I was trying to make is that taiso, in deciding to ignore so many voices, is starting his process on a poor footing.

 

[Neo Alec]

Yeah, I appreciate your post, sorry for the confusion. My response was primarily aimed at Taiso. Humanism is the dominant philosophy in modern Western nontheism. The Fox News crowd and their ilk are not interested in understanding that, and would rather just caricature people as nihilists.

 

[Taiso]

I think you've misunderstood me. The point I was trying to make is that taiso, in deciding to ignore so many voices, is starting his process on a poor footing.

It's not poor footing.

I'm not even setting foot on that particular terrain to begin with.

If you want to agree that this life has meaning, then what is left is to decide what that meaning is.

If a person says that this life doesn't have meaning or that it's all pointless, then there is no conversation to be had between us on that particular subject. And I'm not interested in trying to convince you otherwise. You (not YOU specifically, but those who assert life has no true meaning) can believe what you want, I will do the same, and I think we can still coexist. I don't consider nihilists my enemies. I just don't think they're worth talking to about this particular subject.

People that assert life has 'no meaning' are not serious thinkers.

And that is everything I'm going to say about this subject.

 

[SouthtownKid]

The problem is that a huge number of 'serious thinkers' have come to the conclusion that it's all meaningless, and/or pointless.

They're mostly harmless. The far more dangerous problem is the 'serious thinkers' who are absolute in their belief that they know what's best for everyone and spend their lives trying to foist that vision onto the world. The Marxist-Leninists, for example. The people who, for all of our own good, will happily scapegoat and purge millions of their own fellow citizens. Never mind that their idealized system has never worked in the past, and has always led to mass death and generational suffering. The people who honestly believe that now they're here, it will work the next time it's tried. Wildly, universities are still pumping some of these out. Earnest as fuck. I don't subscribe to the Walter Sobchak position that, "At least it's an ethos."

 

[Neo Alec]

Of course, you can think whatever you want. For my part, I don't think any "serious thinker" would consider bronze age dogma as anything more than fables. Of course individuals can be given some benefit of the doubt having been indoctrinated their entire lives.

 

[Taiso]

They're mostly harmless. The far more dangerous problem is the 'serious thinkers' who are absolute in their belief that they know what's best for everyone and spend their lives trying to foist that vision onto the world. The Marxist-Leninists, for example. The people who, for all of our own good, will happily scapegoat and purge millions of their own fellow citizens. Never mind that their idealized system has never worked in the past, and has always led to mass death and generational suffering. The people who honestly believe that now they're here, it will work the next time it's tried. Wildly, universities are still pumping some of these out. Earnest as fuck. I don't subscribe to the Walter Sobchak position that, "At least it's an ethos."

Where I work, there are a few professors that rightly point out the systemic issues in a capitalist system. That is all real and it's a problem western civilization has worked itself into.

You'll never guess what they think it should be replaced with.

 

[SouthtownKid]

Where I work, there are a few professors that rightly point out the systemic issues in a capitalist system. That is all real and it's a problem western civilization has worked itself into.

You'll never guess what they think it should be replaced with.

Every -ism has a life cycle. Some life cycles are shorter than others, some longer. Capitalism has had a nice, long life and been a huge improvement over whatever feudal type economy came before it. But we're now late in the capitalism life cycle, where all the worst actors over generations have worked out and perfected all the best exploits, and have made extraordinary strides toward returning the working class to serfdom. We may be past the point it's reversible. I 100% agree there has to be something beyond the current system. But buddha wept, it's not communism. Communism fails on Day One.

 

[StevenK]

It's not poor footing.

I'm not even setting foot on that particular terrain to begin with.

If you want to agree that this life has meaning, then what is left is to decide what that meaning is.

If a person says that this life doesn't have meaning or that it's all pointless, then there is no conversation to be had between us on that particular subject. And I'm not interested in trying to convince you otherwise. You (not YOU specifically, but those who assert life has no true meaning) can believe what you want, I will do the same, and I think we can still coexist. I don't consider nihilists my enemies. I just don't think they're worth talking to about this particular subject.

People that assert life has 'no meaning' are not serious thinkers.

And that is everything I'm going to say about this subject.

I guess this is my own problem on a lot of topics. I can't just make an assumption on a critical question then devote endless hours building a world around the branch I opted for. I would rather spend all of that time working on the original critical choice.

I went to church as a kid, all I wanted to talk about was whether god existed. 40 years later, it's still the only question I'm thinking about regarding religion. The fact people have moved past that and reached as far down as whether god would want them to have curly sideburns or not is sheer lunacy to how my mind works, not serious thought, just play.

 

[Lagduf]

We need the Vulcans.

 

[SouthtownKid]

We need the Vulcans.

I know that's a joke, but the fix can't be external.

 

[Lagduf]

I know that's a joke, but the fix can't be external.

We'd probably finally blow ourselves up with their technology.

 

[Taiso]

I guess this is my own problem on a lot of topics. I can't just make an assumption on a critical question then devote endless hours building a world around the branch I opted for. I would rather spend all of that time working on the original critical choice.

I went to church as a kid, all I wanted to talk about was whether god existed. 40 years later, it's still the only question I'm thinking about regarding religion. The fact people have moved past that and reached as far down as whether god would want them to have curly sideburns or not is sheer lunacy to how my mind works, not serious thought, just play.

Well, I'm not arguing the existence of God. Not in the least. That has never been a winning argument. Ever.

What I'm saying is that we, as a people, have to embrace the idea that universal moral principles exist. Not what they are, specifically, but that there is Truth in the universe and it is inviolate.

I know that Neo Alec said that having values absent a higher spiritual being makes them more important since all we have is this time. I could not disagree with this assertion more if you paid me, because this denies the existence of universal principles on a conceptual level. That, essentially, value exists because we need it to, or want it to.

I am saying that it is there, whether we accept it or not.

EDIT: I don't mean to straw man him here. If that's not what he's saying, I am sorry. But I don't believe we 'invent' value out of our desire or need to.

You want to call that God or biology or 'common decency', that is not the point I am making. I believe in God. Not everyone does. And that is their right to do so.

But when someone dismisses the meaning that we all innately possess, or that we invent or contrive it out of a desire to appreciate our time here, that tells me there is no further point in the discussion.

We must find common ground through shared moral values and principles. But we can't find that common ground if we don't at first commit to the idea that such ground can be discovered.

Put aside the idea of God. That's not what I'm angling for with my thoughts and if you feel that I am, I did not mean that and am sorry for that misunderstanding.

 

[Neo Alec]

I know that Neo Alec said that having values absent a higher spiritual being makes them more important since all we have is this time. I could not disagree with this assertion more if you paid me, because this denies the existence of universal principles on a conceptual level. That, essentially, value exists because we need it to, or want it to.

I am saying that it is there, whether we accept it or not.

This feels like splitting hairs. The difference there, short of involving dogma and a deity, seems unimportant.

Oh well. On one hand, you shouldn't be able to write all these tldr philosophy posts without any pushback, but I'm regretting putting another coin in you.