Why haven't any of you doll fuckers started a Game of Thrones topic?

[evil wasabi]

The good

-Tyrion's explanation of Dany's perceived insanity. The "everyone will believe their own shit if everyone else confirms it long enough" stance was good.

-John's decision to kill Dany. We watched her decent to the point where she could justify homicide. The dialog between her and John in the throne room was actually pretty solid. You could see the second that her words forced John's hand.

-Tyrion as hand. I think this worked well.

-Sansa as queen of the north.

-Bran as the king. He seemed to know this was all going to happen, the smug on his face was interesting. I don't mind his being on the throne.

-John fulfilling his destiny. Every time someone is brought back form the dead...they seem to have one purpose and that's it for them, they're done. John wasn't brought back to stop the Night King or stop Cersei, he was brought back to stop Dany from raining fire on the innocent all over the entire planet. He did that, his role was done.

-Breanne of Tarth writing in Jamie's timeline. I liked this part, actually. In the end, Jamie did accomplish quite a lot and did die defending his queen.

-Sam the Maester. I liked his character, it liked his ending.

The bad

-Arya's stupid final Odyssey. Dumb.

-John's returning to the wall. Not 100% what else they would have done but I'm not sure what use the Night's Watch would have moving forward. I guess the writers had to put him somewhere.

-Bronn as a lord and master of coin...dumb, dumb, dumb. Completely out of character...he wouldn't give a good shit about anything other than living in a castle, drinking, and fucking.

-Grey Worm turning into a homicidal manaic...I don't know, they turned him into a super dick. I know he was a killing machine, but it seemed like the personality he had developed disappeared.

The ugly

-Drogon melting the iron throne...not sure why this was necessary. He was pissed his master was dead, sure, but I'm gathering he wouldn't be smart enough to know what the iron throne was, let alone take out his rage on it.

-Tyrion finding Jamie and Cersei...in Ep 5, they make it seem like the entire basement collapsed. By the time Tyrion got down there, it was barely a pile of bricks...it was as if the two could have simply walked over 10' and dodged the cave in. I understand it was necessary that they show the two dead to stomp out "they could have survived" claims...but it was done horribly.

-Anyone taking residence in King's Landing. Why? The town was burnt to a crisp, the castle was in ruins...what was the point? At the end, they made it look like the castle was livable again...and there would be no way that was possible.




That's all I have for now...

Your explanations kind of make me think now that:

- Grey Worm did nothing wrong. He really was a killing machine, and Missandei was the safety feature.
- Bronn was either going to die in KL or get a castle and stupid titles. 5 seasons straight he was promised things and never got them. Bronn was the one surprise left off the spoiler list, so it was welcome, as far as I am concerned.
- Jon had to return to the wall. It was basic writing convention and probably from the outline that GRRM provided.
- The scene where Jaime and Cersei die actually was the problem. Go back and watch episode 5 and tell me that they couldn't have walked over to that spot in the catacomb where the light was peering through. Probably less likely to get crushed by bricks there. But Tyrion finding them was a nice touch, and also, not in the spoilers, so welcome surprise.
-Drogon melting the throne because it's what Denaerys was talking about - break the wheel. The characters may have stopped short of a pure democracy, but the idea of primogeniture ended when Drogon melted the throne and no one could simply sit on the throne, like Jaime did after killing Aerys II, before Eddard told him to get off.

I'm going to reiterate that the real ugly in this finale episode was editing. Scenes were too long, unnecessarily, and boring. Jon talking to Tyrion. Denaerys's death. Drogon melting the throne. Edmure Tulley's exposition. The entire 7 kingdoms counsel scene. The stupid small counsel scene. All of these could have been tighter.

 

[smokehouse]

Your explanations kind of make me think now that:

- Grey Worm did nothing wrong. He really was a killing machine, and Missandei was the safety feature.
- Bronn was either going to die in KL or get a castle and stupid titles. 5 seasons straight he was promised things and never got them. Bronn was the one surprise left off the spoiler list, so it was welcome, as far as I am concerned.
- Jon had to return to the wall. It was basic writing convention and probably from the outline that GRRM provided.
- The scene where Jaime and Cersei die actually was the problem. Go back and watch episode 5 and tell me that they couldn't have walked over to that spot in the catacomb where the light was peering through. Probably less likely to get crushed by bricks there. But Tyrion finding them was a nice touch, and also, not in the spoilers, so welcome surprise.
-Drogon melting the throne because it's what Denaerys was talking about - break the wheel. The characters may have stopped short of a pure democracy, but the idea of primogeniture ended when Drogon melted the throne and no one could simply sit on the throne, like Jaime did after killing Aerys II, before Eddard told him to get off.

I'm going to reiterate that the real ugly in this finale episode was editing. Scenes were too long, unnecessarily, and boring. Jon talking to Tyrion. Denaerys's death. Drogon melting the throne. Edmure Tulley's exposition. The entire 7 kingdoms counsel scene. The stupid small counsel scene. All of these could have been tighter.

I'll admit that I thought twice about posting about Grey Worm's rage...I guess that's why I put it under the "bad" part vs the ugly.

I agree that Bronn getting land and title was good, I really like his character.

Tyrion finding them was a good idea and a strong scene.

I get why they melted the throne...it just felt forced.

The 7 kingdom council scene was awkward at best...and yes, the Tully part was plain stupid. Not sure if that was an ill attempt at humor, but it fell flat. I also agree that the small council scene was rather pointless. They could have simply showed Tyrion sit down, the others joined him, a quick announcement of titles and then faded on the discussion starting. Point made, no waste of time.

I'll say that I did like Dany's death scene...I didn't feel it was too long and I felt they did a good job ("they" being the actors) of making us feel that John hadn't made up his mind until she began to speak. If anything was slightly out of tone, it was when John raised his voice at her and she stayed cool as a cucumber...something she had not done much before. Besides that, I thought it was well done.

If anything, my favorite part was Tyrion's explanation of Dany's rage vs leaving us to think she had just gone mad. He brings examples where she was cheered for horribly killing those she felt to be oppressive and how she felt righteous in those actions. It tied well to her dialog in the throne room and led to John's killing her for more than just his sister's life. It gave a larger meaning to it.

 

[evil wasabi]

I get why they melted the throne...it just felt forced.

It felt forced and the scene dragged. But if you really want to talk about the dragon, go back to episode 5 and check out the scenes where they show the dragon overhead as it flies over KL, and tell me that it doesn't look like 1998 CGI. These guys really didn't give a F.

 

[smokehouse]

It felt forced and the scene dragged. But if you really want to talk about the dragon, go back to episode 5 and check out the scenes where they show the dragon overhead as it flies over KL, and tell me that it doesn't look like 1998 CGI. These guys really didn't give a F.

I watched a great little YouTube video about the decline of CG in modern films. He provided examples of amazing early CG that were used to enhance scenes vs how they now make entire movies with it and how terrible it can look. There were many scenes in GoT that were just terrible, there are many scenes in modern films that equally as bad. I really wish Hollywood would do something about this.

 

[F4U57]

 

[smokehouse]

The entire Night King/Bran sub plot was just total shit. So much build up for absolutely nothing. Think about it...you could basically erase the entire plot line and it would have made no difference to the overall story.

 

[LoneSage]

Man, fuck. I remember how intrigued I was by the Lands of Always Winter when Craster's baby got taken there. If only I knew then that was the only time we'd see it.

I remember when they said season 8 was delayed because they needed to film during dark, wintry scenes. Haha bullshit.

FFS, remember when Stannis's army was stuck in a huge snowfall way back in season 5? How about the snowflakes on the last episode of season 7? Guess 'winter is coming' was just bullshit lie.

It's pretty obvious by now the showrunners took HBO for a ride. HBO execs fucked up hard by not replacing them with competent people. Waited two years for this and that's what we got. Jesus.

 

[norton9478]

The good

-Bronn as a lord and master of coin...dumb, dumb, dumb. Completely out of character...he wouldn't give a good shit about anything other than living in a castle, drinking, and fucking..

If you paid attention to the dialog of the scene, that is the essence of it. He isn't very good at it, but he wields the power.

 

[norton9478]

-Arya's stupid final Odyssey. Dumb.

That was in line with the character.

 

[evil wasabi]

Man, fuck. I remember how intrigued I was by the Lands of Always Winter when Craster's baby got taken there. If only I knew then that was the only time we'd see it.

I remember when they said season 8 was delayed because they needed to film during dark, wintry scenes. Haha bullshit.

FFS, remember when Stannis's army was stuck in a huge snowfall way back in season 5? How about the snowflakes on the last episode of season 7? Guess 'winter is coming' was just bullshit lie.

It's pretty obvious by now the showrunners took HBO for a ride. HBO execs fucked up hard by not replacing them with competent people. Waited two years for this and that's what we got. Jesus.

Poor Hodor.

 

[ballzdeepx]

The best part of the finale was the post credit reel that showed upcoming shows.
I'm beyond happy that Curb is coming back and has outlasted GoT, and I'll also admit that Barry has been great so far (just started into S2)

 

[jro]

Kind of underwhelming, but at least it didn't feel egregiously wrong or stupid like most of the rest of the season. Most of the characters' actions reflected who they are much better than any of the other S8 eps.

Ghost scene was the best scene.

Question about the Drogan/Dany/Jon scene- so Drogan is smart enough to understand what the Throne is and represents and why he should hate it, but he lets Jon live? The only slight rationalization I could come up with for that is that he can tell Jon's a Targaryen and dragons don't kill Targaryens no matter what, but that's a stretch.

 

[smokehouse]

Kind of underwhelming, but at least it didn't feel egregiously wrong or stupid like most of the rest of the season. Most of the characters' actions reflected who they are much better than any of the other S8 eps.

Ghost scene was the best scene.

Question about the Drogan/Dany/Jon scene- so Drogan is smart enough to understand what the Throne is and represents and why he should hate it, but he lets Jon live? The only slight rationalization I could come up with for that is that he can tell Jon's a Targaryen and dragons don't kill Targaryens no matter what, but that's a stretch.

This was my question...how intelligent are the dragons in this world? Definitely not Middle Earth intelligent. Drogan couldn't seem to tell that Dany had a giant blade sticking out of her gut...nor could he put 2+2 together to see that John did it...so was the melting of the iron throne because it happened to be in the way?

I will say it's mighty convenient the way the story just skipped right over those crucial moments when John had to go tell everyone "Yeah...so our queen is dead and her body was, er, carried off somewhere...so there's that..."

When the screen went black right after that scene, I turned and said to my wife "man, I hope they're not going to do some "six weeks later" horse shit".....and then they did.

 

[HornheaDD]

It's Drogon.

Also, I think he was saying "if mom can't have it, no one can."

 

[Taiso]

My take:

The scene where Jon walks past Drogon and he emerges from the snow (I've heard it confirmed that it is actually the snow of a conventional winter and not ash, but can't cite a source) explains everything and what was misinterpreted by Jon's initial interaction with Drogon when he kissed Dany in front of him.

Drogon and Jon can sense one another. Because of his Targaryen blood, Drogon and Jon have some kind of link. Just as most Targaryens deemed 'worthy' to ride dragons do, although in the books the bonding process is a little more detailed.

Drogon and Jon are both worried about Dany. Drogon may be roaring and backing up Dany but it's because he is, like Jon, showing loyalty in the face of any possible dissent. But, rather than flying or perching somewhere, Drogon is curled up in a ball and sitting like a lump because he is sad for his mother.

Jon probably didn't know what he was going to do when he went up those stairs. And Jon and Drogon, in that moment, shared that uncertainty about it all.

Drogon melting the Iron Throne is because, like Jon, he resents it for how it corrupted Dany. The reason he doesn't kill Jon is actually quite simple: Jon is the last Targaryen and if Drogon kills him, he truly will be all alone in the world, the very last of his kind with no connection to anyone or anything.

Despite everything you've seen about Drogon and whatever misconceptions you may have about him, he is, in the end, a good boy.

D&D's take:

Jon needed to survive so he could go back to the real North. That's also why he didn't ride Rhaegal to Dragonstone.

RE: Jon's 'exile':

Jon going back to the Wall is entirely natural for this character. It's the best and happiest possible ending for him.

Maester Aemon being at the Wall was the foreshadowing that some things are just more important. Who you are entitled to be doesn't matter. What matters is who you are. Jon found his entire purpose in the North. He found the most noble people, in need of the most help and willing to live free of all of society's damning restrictions, in the Free Folk.

Live as a bastard-stuck in a class society deems for him.

Live as a member of the Night's Watch-stuck in a class society deems for him.

Live as Aegon VI Targaryen-stuck in a class society deems for him.

Jon discovered who he was and what mattered to him, as an individual in the North.

It wasn't a banishment. It was a convenience, and one Jon was ultimately happy to take on.

Jon sacrificed his entire identity, his right to tell the truth about who he was, for the sake of a realm which surely would have come running to him the second rule in King's Landing went bad.

Not only is the North where Jon belongs, but it's the only place he could go to finally be who he wants to be.

Also, the gate to Castle Black closing behind him is symbolic; the Night's Watch know what he sacrificed for the sake of the world. He died for an idea that ended up having the most merit; stop the threat of the Long Night by uniting the people against an existential threat. He was the 1000th Lord Commander for all of three hours before they told him 'You've done enough. Now rest.'

This is the culmination of the hero's journey in the monomyth. After a long journey, he returns home (a state of mind, much as with Luke in RotJ) to share his newfound wisdom with his fellow people.

Say what you want about this show, but Jon's ending was perfect.

 

[RAZO]

It would've been cool to see Jon mount Drogon and unleash hell on Grey Worm and his whole crew including the Dothraki. I was hoping for it when I saw Jon and Drogon lock eyes but shit didn't happen.

 

[Taiso]

This is like wishing Jesus would Hadoken the entire Roman Empire and the Pharisees all at once after coming back to life.

 

[HDRchampion]

My take:

The scene where Jon walks past Drogon and he emerges from the snow (I've heard it confirmed that it is actually the snow of a conventional winter and not ash, but can't cite a source) explains everything and what was misinterpreted by Jon's initial interaction with Drogon when he kissed Dany in front of him.

Drogon and Jon can sense one another. Because of his Targaryen blood, Drogon and Jon have some kind of link. Just as most Targaryens deemed 'worthy' to ride dragons do, although in the books the bonding process is a little more detailed.

Drogon and Jon are both worried about Dany. Drogon may be roaring and backing up Dany but it's because he is, like Jon, showing loyalty in the face of any possible dissent. But, rather than flying or perching somewhere, Drogon is curled up in a ball and sitting like a lump because he is sad for his mother.

Jon probably didn't know what he was going to do when he went up those stairs. And Jon and Drogon, in that moment, shared that uncertainty about it all.

Drogon melting the Iron Throne is because, like Jon, he resents it for how it corrupted Dany. The reason he doesn't kill Jon is actually quite simple: Jon is the last Targaryen and if Drogon kills him, he truly will be all alone in the world, the very last of his kind with no connection to anyone or anything.

Despite everything you've seen about Drogon and whatever misconceptions you may have about him, he is, in the end, a good boy.

D&D's take:

Jon needed to survive so he could go back to the real North. That's also why he didn't ride Rhaegal to Dragonstone.

RE: Jon's 'exile':

Jon going back to the Wall is entirely natural for this character. It's the best and happiest possible ending for him.

Maester Aemon being at the Wall was the foreshadowing that some things are just more important. Who you are entitled to be doesn't matter. What matters is who you are. Jon found his entire purpose in the North. He found the most noble people, in need of the most help and willing to live free of all of society's damning restrictions, in the Free Folk.

Live as a bastard-stuck in a class society deems for him.

Live as a member of the Night's Watch-stuck in a class society deems for him.

Live as Aegon VI Targaryen-stuck in a class society deems for him.

Jon discovered who he was and what mattered to him, as an individual in the North.

It wasn't a banishment. It was a convenience, and one Jon was ultimately happy to take on.

Jon sacrificed his entire identity, his right to tell the truth about who he was, for the sake of a realm which surely would have come running to him the second rule in King's Landing went bad.

Not only is the North where Jon belongs, but it's the only place he could go to finally be who he wants to be.

Also, the gate to Castle Black closing behind him is symbolic; the Night's Watch know what he sacrificed for the sake of the world. He died for an idea that ended up having the most merit; stop the threat of the Long Night by uniting the people against an existential threat. He was the 1000th Lord Commander for all of three hours before they told him 'You've done enough. Now rest.'

This is the culmination of the hero's journey in the monomyth. After a long journey, he returns home (a state of mind, much as with Luke in RotJ) to share his newfound wisdom with his fellow people.

Say what you want about this show, but Jon's ending was perfect.

Wow this very nice!

As for the finale it was ok. Tyrion was really good in this one. As soon as Jon kills Danny though, it seem to suck out any life left of the show. Everything fell flat, the whole electing Bran as king made sense but he became such a low tier character, seem not earned. Also the remaining 6 kingdom rulers look quite weak.

Brienne writing Jamie's story was great touch ending Jamie's arc. The whole Starks suiting up was pretty sweet. Pretty much the whole series the Starks were getting their ass kicked, was nice to see them end on top.

I think i need to rewatch this episode though. That cunt spoiled the ending for me & i was quite irritated as each spoiler unfolded.

 

[RAZO]

This is like wishing Jesus would Hadoken the entire Roman Empire and the Pharisees all at once after coming back to life.

 

[Taiso]

Wow this very nice!

As for the finale it was ok. Tyrion was really good in this one. As soon as Jon kills Danny though, it seem to suck out any life left of the show. Everything fell flat, the whole electing Bran as king made sense but he became such a low tier character, seem not earned. Also the remaining 6 kingdom rulers look quite weak.

Brienne writing Jamie's story was great touch ending Jamie's arc. The whole Starks suiting up was pretty sweet. Pretty much the whole series the Starks were getting their ass kicked, was nice to see them end on top.

I think i need to rewatch this episode though. That cunt spoiled the ending for me & i was quite irritated as each spoiler unfolded.

Thank you for the compliment.

RE: Jon killing Dany and the energy fading fast.

I agree, to some extent. I talked with my wife about this and felt as though Jon's ultimate fate and the designation of the new ruler should have been its own episode. You could have had some pretty palpable tension, especially after a week long wait wondering what was going to happen next.

We also felt it weird that Grey Worm didn't try to just kill Jon outright. We felt as though a scene was missing here where Jon came down to surrender himself and then the Unsullied and Dothraki and the Northmen faced off for a fight over Jon. Jon then says that he isn't here to spill more blood unless its his own as penance for his deed. The Northmen demand that Jon be tried under Westerosi law since he committed a crime in Westeros and Grey Worm, still fixated on taking his people to Naath, decides that maybe it would be more prudent to wait and see how things play out and they agree to incarcerate Jon pending a trial. Then the word goes out of what's happened and everyone comes south to settle these matters. The lords demand that, given all the executions that have happened to this point, no more heads roll except in an orderly fashion and after trails. Because there are no more ships for the Unsullied to do two executions and sail off for Naath, Grey Worm decides to comply but insists that he will not be satisfied with light sentences.

Then they can add in some transitions as people discover what's happened in King's Landing and then convene for the meeting. You can show Brienne's reaction to Jaimie's fate, even have her talk to Tyrion about it. I think making this seventh episode longer also allows for more gaps in the story to be filled in. Brienne was sworn to Sansa's service but she's suddenly shown to be a Kingsguard? And Podrick as well? And Sam isn't just a maester or a Grand Maester but a fucking ARCHMAESTER? WHY!?!?!? Motherfucker got upjumped without justification so I'd maybe just roll him back to a maester with ambitions to rise in the order. Show Bronn actually being given Highgarden with some words that he needs to change his ways and not be so annoying anymore. Have the theme of the episode be honor; Jon, Jaimie (posthumously), Bronn, Tyrion, Grey Worm and all the rest conducting themselves with the kind of honor that is usually lost in the fog of war. There is a new order. They must become men again and emerge from the anarchy of violence.

The more I am thinking about the way this series ended, the more I am seeing that this all made sense in D&D's heads but they just didn't translate it well to the screen. Not with these truncated seasons.

 

[norton9478]

Yeah, it was snow and not ash. I thought it was ash. But then there was a shot where it melts on someone's hand.

 

[norton9478]

Then they can add in some transitions as people discover what's happened in King's Landing and then convene for the meeting. You can show Brienne's reaction to Jaimie's fate, even have her talk to Tyrion about it. I think making this seventh episode longer also allows for more gaps in the story to be filled in. Brienne was sworn to Sansa's service but she's suddenly shown to be a Kingsguard? And Podrick as well? And Sam isn't just a maester or a Grand Maester but a fucking ARCHMAESTER? WHY!?!?!? Motherfucker got upjumped without justification so I'd maybe just roll him back to a maester with ambitions to rise in the order. Show Bronn actually being given Highgarden with some words that he needs to change his ways and not be so annoying anymore. Have the theme of the episode be honor; Jon, Jaimie (posthumously), Bronn, Tyrion, Grey Worm and all the rest conducting themselves with the kind of honor that is usually lost in the fog of war. There is a new order. They must become men again and emerge from the anarchy of violence.
.

Sometimes, storytelling works better when your imagination has to fill in the gaps.

 

[Lastblade]

Very nice Taiso, I wish they had done something to flesh out each scene instead of time skip. D&D either suck at writing or just ran out of money/time, and I don't think it is the latter.

I am okay with this ending, but it was very boring, very slow, and similar to last episode, I didn't feel anything for any of the characters except maybe Brienne giving Jamie his redemption posthumously.

 

[Taiso]

Sometimes, storytelling works better when your imagination has to fill in the gaps.

Sorry, but I disagree as it pertains to this story.

Lack of detail means lack of causality.

Causality and consequence, along with an almost too realistic focus on its own history, are the life blood of this series.

When people act in weird ways and you aren't given a satisfactory explanation, it just feels lazy.

 

[Taiso]

Very nice Taiso, I wish they had done something to flesh out each scene instead of time skip. D&D either suck at writing or just ran out of money/time, and I don't think it is the latter.

I've heard conflicting things from various outlets and articles speak of two possible reasons for the truncated series. Both of them are, in my opinion and given the production cycle and corporate intentions of a juggernaut like Game of Thrones, viable scenarios.

It may have less to do with D&D being incapable of crafting a better story out of Martin's outline and more to do with either them being unwilling or prevented from doing so.

Yes, yes, Wolverine and Troy and all that.

But.

This is a case of either D&D being done with the show or envisioning the last part as 13 episodes rather than 7 and then 6 episodes.

The other thing I've heard is that HBO, despite publicly stating they wanted to give D&D time to 'do it right', wanting to move on to the next series, the prequel supposedly based on the Long Night (original Long Night), which...fuck, who cares?

Anyway, as I've said. When a series that is this much of a cultural phenomenon and is simultaneously able to maintain such a high level of quality overall and it falls so far so fast, it is more than just 'these writers suck'.

There is a lot more going on here. The only ones that will ever know are Martin, D&D and HBO. And I almost guarantee you none of them will ever talk about it.